Just got the email - going from $45 a month to $850 a month - What are you all migrating to?

[brian!]

3 minutes ago, stormy said:

I'm thinking of just closing it to the public and keeping it as an archive of "the state of things", for safekeeping.

4 minutes ago, stormy said:

And migrating away of course.

of course - a wise move!

[yggdrasil]

3 hours ago, stormy said:

I'm thiking of just closing it to the public and keeping it as an archive of "the state of things", for safekeeping. And migrating away of course.

You can keep the database, including a full backup if you need to confirm some information in the future, which I would advise even if you migrate away or uninstall WHMCS in the future.

Or if you want a full installation online, then put it behind authentication, that way it's not public, and only you can access it with the username/password.

Just put it under a specific folder like "archive" and put that a password on the whole folder or restrict it with .htaccess to your IP only.

[UnwilfulExpenditure]

4 hours ago, stormy said:

I'm thiking of just closing it to the public and keeping it as an archive of "the state of things", for safekeeping. And migrating away of course.

Two choices, keep it for prosperity - One day it may be a bit like blockbuster merch! People might want to marvel at what used to be! Or, my personal favourite.... keep the DB, bin the rest! I won't tag them, but I've seen a project someone is working on that is sexy af! 1 install of whmcs left for me! It's petty sad really, I accpted the faults because of the price and I still chuckle at the perception of value coming 1st of july! 

I disagree with it in the strongest possible terms, I also don't think adding more up-sell features was well timed - It's been discussed elsewhere people felt it to be the straw that broke the camels back with the ones willing to stomach the price increase and I can't honestly say I blame them, having to edit out what is pretty much advertisements from a software you lease is insulting at the old prices! Fortunately anything needing an edit I can read the open code base now for 7 installations! 

[yggdrasil]

20 minutes ago, UnwilfulExpenditure said:

Two choices, keep it for prosperity - One day it may be a bit like blockbuster merch! People might want to marvel at what used to be! Or, my personal favourite.... keep the DB, bin the rest! I won't tag them, but I've seen a project someone is working on that is sexy af! 1 install of whmcs left for me! It's petty sad really, I accpted the faults because of the price and I still chuckle at the perception of value coming 1st of july! 

I disagree with it in the strongest possible terms, I also don't think adding more up-sell features was well timed - It's been discussed elsewhere people felt it to be the straw that broke the camels back with the ones willing to stomach the price increase and I can't honestly say I blame them, having to edit out what is pretty much advertisements from a software you lease is insulting at the old prices! Fortunately anything needing an edit I can read the open code base now for 7 installations! 

To be fair, unless you plan  to keep an isolated air gapped old server around, keeping the DB might be the only choice for most people. It's very likely your WHMCS install will not work in the future as you keep upgrading the web server, PHP, operating system, etc. I don't think cost wise, it's an option for most people to keep a separated old configuration server just for WHMCS. Keeping just the database on the other part is basically free as it will work forever without the GUI (php files...).

The good part is you don't need to keep this online in your server. Someone can just dump the database and have a local DB exporter or MySQL server they just start to consult the data when they need it. Ideally, you should have the data for reference, and the important pieces should be exported or migrated to what ever new solution someone migrates.

I suspect the only part that most people might need to keep for existing users, is the billing part that includes invoices and transactions. Maybe also support tickets, but the rest can be pretty much be gone and just created back on any new system. You can always email them upfront to download all their past data with several months ahead. That way, once you retire WHMCS, they already were informed that old data is going to be erased or archived.

In the end, customers don't really care as they can still access their financial from their proper bank, PayPal, etc. And most people only access an online account to see live, existing data, not old past data. Most people will be fine with what new systems provide, even if they are more simple, as with anything, with time those new systems will slowly get most WHMCS features, including with external plugins and add-ons as the community and usage on those platforms increases and people jump ship from WHMCS. Its the natural evolution. Most developers already have stopped developing for WHMCS all together and are only supporting their existing modules. 

Those sticking with WHMCS because of those modules or features will have a hard time in the future anyway as sales for those developers decrease, and they have less interest in supporting and developing for that platform. Watched the same for multiple pieces of software over the years, highly popular with third party add-ons and today all those modules are outdated and unsupported. The same will happen with WHMCS as users move away, eventually those developers will just completely retire their modules as there is no incentive to create products for a such a small niche market.

[UnwilfulExpenditure]

24 minutes ago, yggdrasil said:

Most developers already have stopped developing for WHMCS all together and are only supporting their existing modules. 

Yeah, We were all trying to work out how many features over the years were initially created by 3rd parties! It was shocking, I think treating devs badly - after essentially taking a lot of business with price increases is awful! 

I am going to get my monies worth for my remaining license, Becase there is no way on earth I'm reading here when paying for "Premium support"  I'm looking forward to having support 24/7 whenever I need something answering! Although we're eventually moving, I'm sure I'll have many, many, many questions! 😂

[Bigol'tastynuggets]

So what is everyone moving to? I can't afford the new prices without dropping quality of service which is not negotiable for my business so we're looking at other billing solutions to send a few invoices and allow people to pay us 😉 We don't need 3000 ways to make whmcs more money on top of these extortionate monthly fees

[ChrisTERiS]

As for me, I'll go with WiseCP.  Pitty that my age does not permits my to learn new things to be able to move my WHMCS modules to WiseCP.  But for sure I’ll use it in my site, and actually should be funny to sell WHMCS modules in a website operating by WiseCP 😊

The only that I found a bit as negative is that there are no 3nd party templates, even if the 2nd template that comes with WiseCP is very fine. And best of all, the License Manager for which I paid $100 to WHMCS is including as standard (so Free) feature of core files.

 

[johannes]

18 minutes ago, WHMUp said:

 a bit as negative is that there are no 3nd party templates

a few are there .. https://www.moduleswise.com/en/themes

[yggdrasil]

19 hours ago, WHMUp said:

As for me, I'll go with WiseCP.  Pitty that my age does not permits my to learn new things to be able to move my WHMCS modules to WiseCP.  But for sure I’ll use it in my site, and actually should be funny to sell WHMCS modules in a website operating by WiseCP 😊

The only that I found a bit as negative is that there are no 3nd party templates, even if the 2nd template that comes with WiseCP is very fine. And best of all, the License Manager for which I paid $100 to WHMCS is including as standard (so Free) feature of core files.

 

$750 for lifetime support and updates? That is not realistic. How long until they make enough money and are sold to another company, close out, or just decide to drop that promise?

It certainly feels like WHMCS and many other companies that lied in the past. No business is sustainable that way. It's like lifetime hosting offers, they are all fraud as nobody will keep your servers running which have a recurring cost for life for a one time payment. It's always the same story, they either sell or change the brand and don't honor the initial sold agreement anymore or just decide to change the license scheme like WHMCS did. If experience shows us anything is that if WHMCS can get away with it, so can everyone else.

That pricing makes me feel nervous about them. Seems like marketing to attract quick cash. The other licenses seem fine as they have a small recurring yearly fee to keep up with updates.

What someone posts on a website has no credibility at this point when it comes to software similar to WHMCS. I would need to know more about who is behind or if they are willing to put that promise down in writing...since the software is still encoded and there is zero guarantee except "Just trust us...".

I see an issue with the business model. The software on the other part looks great, and it seems plenty of people are moving to that solution from WHMCS since it looks and feels similar.

Edited July 3, 2021 by yggdrasil

[ChrisTERiS]

3 hours ago, yggdrasil said:

$750 for lifetime support and updates? That is not realistic. How long until they make enough money and are sold to another company, close out, or just decide to drop that promise?

Not all fingers in our hands are same, so not all cases are same for people.

That said:

1. Why $750? I'll start (talking in person and just for my case), I can pay $295 with "Powered by..." link (something for which I never care), plus $35/year. For maximum 5 years this means $175+$295 = $470 and not $750. As I wrote before, I'm talking for myself only, I'm 65yo and 5 years to work more is a dream. Don't think more than 3 years.
2. Sure what you wrote about "making money and selling the company" is totally correct and logic. The only difference is that for WHMCS it already exists NOW, while for them (or any other company), can be true after some years, and most important is MAYBE and not a fact.
3. I don't deal with any type of Hosting, so some missing features does not touch me. I want it for selling software and the License Manager which is a default feature works fine (I paid $100 to WHMCS just for this). Also some extra features like Blog, Page Builder, very configurable homepage etc, save a lot of money to buy them for WHMCS.

I wrote about Owned License just to be able to compare things. Actually I'll use the leased license with $12.90/mo, with all features that I wrote before, and without the restriction of total clients. So I can easily use the system for free software something that was impossible with WHMCS, which counts as active client anybody who has order something even if what he ordered has a zero price.

That's all

Chris

[johannes]

37 minutes ago, WHMUp said:

I don't deal with any type of Hosting .... I want it for selling software and the License Manager ... features like Blog, Page Builder, very configurable homepage etc

May i recommend https://wordpress.org/plugins/easy-digital-downloads/   in this case

[johannes]

You cannot compare  $750  in USA, where you can maybe live a half month, with $750 in Turkey, where you can live 2-3 monthes (or more).

[ChrisTERiS]

21 minutes ago, johannes said:

May i recommend https://wordpress.org/plugins/easy-digital-downloads/   in this case

Thank you for your recommendation, I know it and I've tested it some years ago,  but the extensions that I need are very expensive. Only the Software License costs $199

https://easydigitaldownloads.com/downloads/software-licensing/

But the main problem is that for some reason I don't like Wordpress.  Maybe is a free software, has 100's of free plugins and templates, but for someone who wants to build a Business site is the most expensive choice.

[yggdrasil]

28 minutes ago, johannes said:

You cannot compare  $750  in USA, where you can maybe live a half month, with $750 in Turkey, where you can live 2-3 monthes (or more).

That was not my point. They say $750 for lifetime. It doesn't matter where you live. Do you expect a company or developer to provide you unlimited updates for let's say even 10+25 years? + Updates for every download. That sounds unrealistic. It works if they plan to sell 100 licenses, but not if they expect to grow, they will quickly have to hire support staff to handle support, and it will cost them money, yet those people are not giving them a penny anymore. Even if it just means checking bug reports or answering emails with questions.

The $35 yearly sounds more reasonable because the more customers, they more they make. Humans want to get paid, they don't work for free. Providing unlimited support for free for a lifetime is not realistic unless you plan to cap the amount of accounts or customers you are going to sell that type of license.

Edited July 3, 2021 by yggdrasil

[ChrisTERiS]

25 minutes ago, johannes said:

You cannot compare  $750  in USA, where you can maybe live a half month, with $750 in Turkey, where you can live 2-3 monthes (or more).

Correct. Cost of life is always, maybe, the most important parameter when you want to setup a price. 

[ChrisTERiS]

1 minute ago, yggdrasil said:

That was not my point. They say $750 for lifetime. It doesn't matter where you live. Do you expect a company or developer to provide you unlimited updates for let's say even 10+25 years? + Updates for every download. That sounds unrealistic.

Correct. Leased license, I believe, is the most fair solution for both parties. For clients as they'll pay a small fee to enter the business and try the water, but also for the developers to build a standard monthly income to be able to continue supporting software.

[yggdrasil]

1 hour ago, WHMUp said:

Not all fingers in our hands are same, so not all cases are same for people.

That said:

1. Why $750? I'll start (talking in person and just for my case), I can pay $295 with "Powered by..." link (something for which I never care), plus $35/year. For maximum 5 years this means $175+$295 = $470 and not $750. As I wrote before, I'm talking for myself only, I'm 65yo and 5 years to work more is a dream. Don't think more than 3 years.
2. Sure what you wrote about "making money and selling the company" is totally correct and logic. The only difference is that for WHMCS it already exists NOW, while for them (or any other company), can be true after some years, and most important is MAYBE and not a fact.
3. I don't deal with any type of Hosting, so some missing features does not touch me. I want it for selling software and the License Manager which is a default feature works fine (I paid $100 to WHMCS just for this). Also some extra features like Blog, Page Builder, very configurable homepage etc, save a lot of money to buy them for WHMCS.

I wrote about Owned License just to be able to compare things. Actually I'll use the leased license with $12.90/mo, with all features that I wrote before, and without the restriction of total clients. So I can easily use the system for free software something that was impossible with WHMCS, which counts as active client anybody who has order something even if what he ordered has a zero price.

That's all

Chris

I don't have a problem with owned licenses. Most probably will go the lease way for a couple of months, if they like what they see, buy a lifetime license. I do have a problem when some people say lifetime support and services for no money. That is not a wise business plan if they plan to be successful. Even if they charge $5 a year, that is still income every year, 1000 licenses x $5 is still money to cover some sort of support and pay the bandwidth for updates and other things, but 1000 x $0 is nothing and yet if we trust their word they have to keep that support and updates for lifetime.

Unless, it's a promotional thing until they get some customers and are going to retire that license once they reach a specific number of installations.

Why would someone be concerned about this? Because if you plan to go with them for your business, you want them to be successful and make money. Otherwise, they will just move on to something else in the future, and they stop development. It's very likely they plan to discontinue selling that lifetime license in some future, so it might be a good investment now for those that plan to go with them. Personally, I would prefer the option in which they just charge a yearly fee for updates and support. Makes more sense to me. I don't like one more monthly recurring fee unless it's a small yearly one.

As a sidenote, the software does look great.

Edited July 3, 2021 by yggdrasil

[yggdrasil]

11 minutes ago, WHMUp said:

Correct. Cost of life is always, maybe, the most important parameter when you want to setup a price. 

Servers, bandwidth, certificates, domains, and other software required to run any online business still cost the same regardless of your location. Example: Someone running a support community with 1000 online users per second might have bigger costs than someone running one with no activity. The more they grow, the more traffic they will receive for downloading updates, having to manage servers, forums, license checks, bug reports, etc.

The location might be only good for the developer's wages and living costs as well, support. It's a business fact, the more they grow, the more the costs will also grow.

[cluster]

I tested it for 30 days ... wisecp is already very close to whmcs, however there are currently too many bugs for my purposes (ordering, products, cache ...) the theme template system seems very complicated when process directly w/ the code (own themes) it uses a css.php where the css can be changed via backend (rather superfluous and risky).  All modules and plugins are ioncubed ... all in all wisecp is not too bad and will probably be a good alternative one day. I chose blesta because it's open source and it seems to be more stable than wisecp, I use wordpress as frontend because support for multi language sites is not optimal yet.

Edited July 3, 2021 by cluster

[UnwilfulExpenditure]

Yeah, I won't buy owned/lifetime licenses again where a monthly/annual is available! @WHMUp I've not doubt you'll be a whizz in wise in no time!

[yggdrasil]

On 7/3/2021 at 3:53 AM, cluster said:

I tested it for 30 days ... wisecp is already very close to whmcs, however there are currently too many bugs for my purposes (ordering, products, cache ...) the theme template system seems very complicated when process directly w/ the code (own themes) it uses a css.php where the css can be changed via backend (rather superfluous and risky).  All modules and plugins are ioncubed ... all in all wisecp is not too bad and will probably be a good alternative one day. I chose blesta because it's open source and it seems to be more stable than wisecp, I use wordpress as frontend because support for multi language sites is not optimal yet.

WHMCS modules are also encoded. Personally, I would not go with any encoded software ever again. This is why Blesta looks like a better option in the long run. Ioncube is supposed to protect from software piracy, except it seems some developers are using it for other purposes, they are encoding things that are not related to licensing, but rather changing the software which means I'm not entirely sure what they are selling you, if you are unable to customize or change it. Even if it looks good initially, this is something that will come to bite you eventually.

[ChrisTERiS]

On 7/13/2021 at 9:16 PM, yggdrasil said:

I'm not entirely sure what they are selling you, if you are unable to customize or change it.

I think that something like this, did WHMCS lately. From what I understood reading:

"If you are seeing a licence suspended message when attempting to access your WHMCS Admin Area, rest assured that your customers will not encounter any errors or reduced functionality in the ordering and client area."

at: https://www.whmcs.com/members/index.php/knowledgebase/238/Iandsharp039m-seeing-a-Licence-Suspended-message-in-error.html

and also from my own experience 2 years ago, when WHMCS suspend a license, there is no access to Admin area, but everything else for the clients works as before. Having this in mind, I didn't gave lot of attention when my license suspend 2 weeks ago. But WHMCS found a really very bad way to make webmaster ridiculous to his client. See (with real data) what happen in the sale that I've during this suspension time:

1.  My Client ordered my module KiS Cart
2. On his account appeared that he bought Legal Aggreements
3. In my PayPal transaction appeared that the client bought KiS Community
4. In the same PayPal transaction even if it says "KiS Community", the price is not correct, actually is the lower price of the modules that I've in my store.

 

 

You can easily check that Invoice No is the same, transaction id is the same, but product is different, price is different, and both are different from what the client ordered.

THANK YOU WHMCS for this. You proved on the best way how much your respect people who support your software since 2006. 15 full years. And getting the chance, I want to send a public message to Matt, the owner.

"Matt do you remember me?? I'm "Maria (MicroHellas)".  Back to 2006, you coded me 2 examples for license addon, for $100 each. It was the time, that you had time to support your clients and help them, because you know that, especially developers, they'll help you to increase sales. Was the time, that you did all them alone. Now you grow up, you became rich, and you're giving a sh@#@ to those who helped you in your first step. But Socrates said: The one who, on the success days, forgets from where he started, is his destiny, some day, to return to the point that he started. Deep of my heart, I wish it to you."

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by WHMUp

[UnwilfulExpenditure]

It's actually a very valid point in terms of GDPR - No WHMCS admin can be 100% sure they're complying! @yggdrasil We have one whmcs installation left and we're quite happy to move that when ready! People like to moan about stuff and haven't even stumbled upon the fact it actually works! In terms of billing software it blows WHMCS out of the water! 

It lacks in the visual and module dept - Which I think will change now there's less money for devs and people leaving this community.  But When you can make the accountant happy - You're on the right track! With the already moved ones - I'm on track to break even in august - which is then when I'll be feeling the savings! 

The last whmcs installation - When swapped will take about 43 days to break even! We'll be sponsoring some modules that are highly requested with the savings for the first year! 

 

[lbeachmike]

I am in the same situation, with multiple WHMCS installations for small client bases.  I have four owned licenses.  I too do not see how it is legal or ethical to sell somebody an owned license, that you later render useless.  It is basically a bait and switch.  You can't pay for one thing, and have it morph into another thing.

[yggdrasil]

57 minutes ago, lbeachmike said:

I am in the same situation, with multiple WHMCS installations for small client bases.  I have four owned licenses.  I too do not see how it is legal or ethical to sell somebody an owned license, that you later render useless.  It is basically a bait and switch.  You can't pay for one thing, and have it morph into another thing.

Ethical? No. Legal? Probably yes, since they keep making you agree to new terms of services every time you update the software.

They are not taking your software away, just making it obsolete or end of life.