General web hosting community

[UnwilfulExpenditure]

Any general sort of conversation places out there? Ideally ones out there that aren't inherrently bias or have daft rules? I've seen posts recently that put me off of the big 2 - in the way they censor company names from appearing - I don't care too much what they do but I'd like for a new spot to discuss stuff! 

Any suggestions appreciated 🙂 

[bear]

1 hour ago, UnwilfulExpenditure said:

I've seen posts recently that put me off of the big 2 - in the way they censor company names from appearing

That happens on all forums. Which are the "big 2" you refer to?

[Bigol'tastynuggets]

I'm guessing LET and WHT

[bear]

Of those, only LET is more of a  "free for all" and allows more to go on. They still censor, they still moderate, but it's more "loose" in moderation of the two forums. It's also a place that if you do anything out of place or suspicious/dubious, they (the members) will likely attack and dox the perpetrator before the mods/admins remove or take official steps.
Free comes at a cost. 😉

[UnwilfulExpenditure]

What I'm after is something moderated, But not at the cost of completely blocking the mentioning of domain registars, Software and hosts from users - I don't feel thats a good place to get news from within the industry - Much like how I don't get my information from NK news outlets I just want something where conversation is encouraged rather than stifled! If I get called a mean name, I shall survive 😂

Free for alls, do not always equal bad endings but I appreciate where you're coming from - I do like your consistency bear but I want somewhere.... in the middle ground ideally! 🙂 Obviously any group can run a community how they wish - But having only ever used those two I was hoping for some advice on somewhere a bit more relaxed an unbias whilst remaining professional 

[bear]

1 hour ago, UnwilfulExpenditure said:

not at the cost of completely blocking the mentioning of domain registars

Ah, I know what that's about. You don't know *why* it was done, so you can't know if it was earned or not.
All I can say is it's not done lightly, and it's always a last resort. One can be a good registrar and a terrible community member all at once.

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a bit more relaxed an unbias

Biased? In what way?

[UnwilfulExpenditure]

11 hours ago, bear said:

 One can be a good registrar and a terrible community member all at once.

This is my issue with this one example, People are sent an infraction for merely mentioning the company. As a member I don't ned to know which squabbles go on, nor do I care - but seeing people sharing their "warnings" for the mere mention of the name is not somewhere I want to spend my time - I could write an honest reccomendation to someone with total innocence about domain registrars and get put on a naughty step..... I only know about the one in question because people shared it......... who knows what other mines are awaiting me when sharing knowledge and experience! 

I will say, it's the lesser of the two evils I'm used to, but I'm not playing guess who is on the allowed list when sharing my opinion - So looking for other communities! If I partake in a general community for the general web hosting industry - I'm not playing favourites with reccomendations as I'd rather reccomend who I think is good imo and the growing reddit posts are far too worrying for my liking by all means ban people from the community if needs be but to not allow the mention of an entire company based on whatever caused a rift (be it mean words, advertising commitments or naughty behaviour..... I have no idea)  is not a good look for the hosting industry as a whole! In my opinion this one track mindset is part of the problem of web hosting being seen as it is! 

[bear]

38 minutes ago, UnwilfulExpenditure said:

People are sent an infraction for merely mentioning the company

My guess is they changed the company name to avoid the censor of it. That would be a broken rule (but over there a first offense is an alert, not an infraction, and it has no penalty). Every community has rules, and breaking one generally means you hear from the mods. Can't be helped. 

A name or business receiving a censor means the behavior was unacceptable and ongoing. Being unable to mention the name usually puts a stop to the desire to keep trying, and implemented only after all other avenues are exhausted. Judging the community and not wanting to be a part of it because they censored someone is up to you, but that line of thinking may find you without many forums to participate in, as they all have some form of moderation. 

[UnwilfulExpenditure]

I don't judge the community for a domain registrar being blacklisted from even being mentioned, That lies firmly on the person making the decision sadly! The community is 99.99% amazing and helpful and judging by the discontent over the last few days on reddit most were unaware of the restrictions in place - Me included! 

I can't contribute to somewhere, not knowing which hurdles are needed to leap over, or which bars to limbo under! I'm certaonly not writing long winded posts there anymore not knowing if it's all a waste of time when I press send 😂

[bear]

2 hours ago, UnwilfulExpenditure said:

I'm certaonly not writing long winded posts there anymore not knowing if it's all a waste of time when I press send

If you click advanced (or preview) first, it will show you the post as it will appear and allow you to remove things censored. There aren't that many you'd come across there that you'd be likely to be posting, but it happens. It's the nature of forums that abuse takes place. There are posts in this very board that get removed (many silently) simply because the mods felt they didn't like it (possibly including this one). At least over there it's because of clearly posted rules. 
Just sayin'

[Kian]

21 hours ago, bear said:

A name or business receiving a censor means the behavior was unacceptable and ongoing. Being unable to mention the name usually puts a stop to the desire to keep trying, and implemented only after all other avenues are exhausted. Judging the community and not wanting to be a part of it because they censored someone is up to you, but that line of thinking may find you without many forums to participate in, as they all have some form of moderation. 

That's funny as the reason why I quit WHT was you censoring me and giving me infractions for "self-promoting" in 2019 😅 Nothing against you. I think you were just applying the rules but that thing got me thinking.

A guy asked "Is there a module that allow me to do use multiple brands in WHMCS?" The answer was pretty straightforward. There were (and still are) just two modules to achieve that goal. One from Modulesgarden and one from me. I listed pros and cons for both options. I even suggested to go for Modulesgarden for a number of reasons but "post deleted for self-promoting". I posted the message again removing details. Basically I only wrote the names of such modules. Deleted again with infraction. Ironically I was not even allowed to mention just Modulesgarden.

Nowadays the rules of most forums are stupid. A guy asks who sells Ferrari cars. Ferrari can't say "I sell them" but maybe BMW can post the link to ferrari.com 🤔 In essence if you happen to have the solution to a specific problem, you must keep it for you otherwise it's self-promoting. That's how you endup with forums full of questions with superficial answers.

As for LET, on one hand you have more freedom but on the other it's a nest of vipers. Here is a typical post:

User: Good moring guys, can you help me with 2.5 + 2.51?
Viper 1: Good morning? It's 00:00 o'clock here in San Francisco
Viper 2: guys??? I'm a girl! LMAO
Viper 3: 2.51 + 2.51 *fixed
User: Sorry
Viper 4: I AM sorry
User: Yes I'm sorry
Viper 4: Yes (comma) I'm sorry

To me LET is a place where so many "expert" aim at putting everybody down. Helping and sharing knowledge is impossible.

p.s. Few months ago I tried giving a second chance to WHT. A person asked what to expect from SEO in the long run. I provided details about what I managed to get for some metrics. There were no links or names in my message. Just plain numbers. Moreover I had no signature so basically I was just a Mr. Nobody trying to be helpful. Few hours later mods deleted my message for advertising. Whut? 😤 As you can imagine that post died pretty soon with stupid one-liner answers. WHT is so stupid.

[bear]

1 hour ago, Kian said:

A guy asked "Is there a module that allow me to do use multiple brands in WHMCS?" The answer was pretty straightforward. There were (and still are) just two modules to achieve that goal. One from Modulesgarden and one from me. I listed pros and cons for both options. I even suggested to go for Modulesgarden for a number of reasons but "post deleted for self-promoting". I posted the message again removing details. Basically I only wrote the names of such modules. Deleted again with infraction. Ironically I was not even allowed to mention just Modulesgarden.

I won't get into a debate about specific moderation of another community, but mentioning your own, twice (one of those after being told not to), was likely what got you in trouble. 

Quote

Nowadays the rules of most forums are stupid. A guy asks who sells Ferrari cars. Ferrari can't say "I sell them" but maybe BMW can post the link to ferrari.com 🤔 In essence if you happen to have the solution to a specific problem, you must keep it for you otherwise it's self-promoting. That's how you endup with forums full of questions with superficial answers.

So you feel the guy selling something (Ferrari) should not be stopped self promoting and selling (in a f-o-r-u-m section where it's not permitted), and question why the guy not selling the brand but has experience can talk about that experience? Guy #2 has no benefit to discussing it, while guy #1 has a definitive benefit from it. 
Interesting.

Years ago that community allowed providers to reply with offers. It was madness. Every provider on the planet that was a member would post a "shotgunned" offer that may not even come close to matching the request, to the frustration of all (especially mods who had to review every offer and remove the absurd ones). The noise was unbearable, the complaints unending, and eventually it was stopped. 

Edited July 5, 2021 by bear

[UnwilfulExpenditure]

So anyway - Semantics of community dictatorship and re-education points aside (mostly joking) .... Anyone know of a good place to find..... a less restricted on the scope of companies allowed to exist but moderated for actual issues - such as spam and preferably without the politics 😂 sort of place? If anyone knows of one please feel free to message me or comment 😘

Edited July 5, 2021 by UnwilfulExpenditure

[bear]

2 hours ago, UnwilfulExpenditure said:

such as spam and preferably without the politics

To that point, it was not about politics or personalities.
Moving on. 

[Kian]

5 hours ago, bear said:

So you feel the guy selling something (Ferrari) should not be stopped self promoting and selling (in a f-o-r-u-m section where it's not permitted), and question why the guy not selling the brand but has experience can talk about that experience? Guy #2 has no benefit to discussing it, while guy #1 has a definitive benefit from it. 
Interesting.

The only answer to that question is Ferrari.  There's no other way to reply and I don't see this as self-promoting. Specific questions require specific answers and not something vague like yes, no, Google it or visit marketplace. There's no need to add an unnecessary layer of complexity. In your example I don't care about the benefit of guy #1 or guy #2. What's important is that the user receives an answer.

It upsets me when people can't see the difference between being helpful and spam. Last year I even decided to remove any reference to my stuff from signatures still because of you seeing "self-promotion" in all my posts 😋 But the sad truth is that on WHT good posts keep disappearing for marked as spam. I'm not talking about my posts. As I said earlier I refuse to partecipate to that poorly managed community.

Lastly I want to say that I don't find irritating when a person sponsors something after he spent time to provide me a very good reply. I'm talking about blogs, Quora, LinkedIn and YouTube. Hosting communities are dead ⚰️ with their stupid rules that limit freedom of speech.

4 hours ago, UnwilfulExpenditure said:

Anyone know of a good place to find..... a less restricted on the scope of companies allowed to exist but moderated for actual issues - such as spam and preferably without the politics 😂 sort of place? If anyone knows of one please feel free to message me or comment 😘

If you find one please share it. I'll follow you.

[UnwilfulExpenditure]

1 hour ago, Kian said:

Hosting communities are dead ⚰️ with their stupid rules that limit freedom of speech.

Yeah, I think there needs to be a more viable option! But realistically in my opinion I think most are poisoned wells with advertising deals and circles of buddies - the rest are an inconvenience or potential sales! I really wish I didn't feel that way but seeing more and more examples of who is blocked where it's like a bloody playground. 

No wonder the hosting industry is such a joke, A total race to the bottom, While a few circle jerk each other and praise the overlords. 

But yeah I will certainly get in touch if I hear of anywhere - I may even consider funding something so it can stay neutral! 
 

[bear]

3 hours ago, Kian said:

because of you seeing "self-promotion" in all my posts

Final point, I only issued one alert to you. Reach out there if you need "closure", but I'm done discussing it here.

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As I said earlier I refuse to partecipate to that poorly managed community.

You participate here, and far more posts simply vanish here than there, most often with no contact from the mod/s.
Interesting. 

[UnwilfulExpenditure]

It's not aimed at an industry though, It's a companies product community - They are not claiming to be for an entire industry  I think is the major difference in this apples to oranges comparison. I'm not aiming this directly at you as a person bear - I do like you! I do however think your purposely avoiding the issues to defend the indefensible - Again that's your call! 

I was looking for alternatives though as I've pretty much made my mind up seeing a lot of the "infraction" emails - There is a closed group on reddit if any of you wanted to speak to those not happy with the situation - Again, not really required but I think I'm done personally now I realise the scale of the "Naughty step" list  - I would love to have my mind changed but doubt I'll get more than "We won't discuss it with you" response emails people get when asking what they've done wrong! 

I do think WHT is miles ahead of LET in terms of egregious behaviour, BUT that doesn't make it ok to me it just seems very underhanded when you see what is censored..... and I probably don't even know the full list!  

[bear]

12 minutes ago, UnwilfulExpenditure said:

I do however think your purposely avoiding the issues to defend the indefensible

I've avoided nothing, and merely stating that rules are enforced there. Break them, hear from the mods, so very clear cut. Very defensible.

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There is a closed group on reddit if any of you wanted to speak to those not happy with the situation

I have no interest in getting into a  debate on Reddit with someone unhappy with moderation, since there is no possible outcome where they're happy, and I'd be breaking NDAs to do so publicly. I can only speak generally as I've done here. 
Each of them (presumably), had and still have the chance to reach out to us to discuss their account, through proper channels. Rudeness, personal insults and threats are common things we get from some folks (no matter what the moderation issue was), and the version of what happened that they post elsewhere differs greatly from what really happened. Believe what you will, but understand that someone mad at moderators won't ever say "I had it coming...".

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it just seems very underhanded when you see what is censored..... and I probably don't even know the full list!

I'm sorry but underhanded? 
Nothing underhanded about it. Simply rule enforcement, with escalating consequences. Those censored didn't get immediately censored. It was earned.

[Kian]

 11 hours ago, UnwilfulExpenditure said:

But yeah I will certainly get in touch if I hear of anywhere - I may even consider funding something so it can stay neutral! 

Same idea 🤣

Don't forget that in some countries you can find localised version of WHT (there's no connection between them). Of course they are smaller but way more free and friendly. Language barrier is the only problem. For example I like DE and NL forums but I can't speak German and Dutch. I can just read using Google Translate 😔

That said, some of such forums are abandoned. For example the italian WHT used to be a great community but now it is full of bots posting spam from more than 7 years. Maybe they can be purchased 😋

8 hours ago, bear said:

You participate here, and far more posts simply vanish here than there, most often with no contact from the mod/s.
Interesting. 

As much as I dislike WHMCS decisions, I have no problem admitting that this community is okay. Since 2009 none of my posts have been deleted or censored. No one limited my freedom of speach. After so many years I think I received one warning. It was deserved. I had enough of WGS stealing my stuff from months and trying to kill my rankings on search engines with negative SEO attacks. I'm not a saint 😬

Anyway I do understand that also here some posts vanish but it's understandable when you criticize WHMCS harshly and repeatedly. If someone hates a community (or company) so much (like I do for WHT and LET) he/she should just leave to avoid intoxication. Moreover some people could get annoyed by so many daily rants even if they're 100% legit.

Let me correct you on one thing. I'm not partecipating in this community. I went from 50 posts /mo full of scripts, hooks, examples and suggestions down to 10 like this same conversation we are having. I'm just chatting and not helping anyone with WHMCS. I'm waiting for something magical to happen from WHMCS 😪 In the meantime I have other plans.

[bear]

1 hour ago, Kian said:

Let me correct you on one thing. I'm not partecipating in this community.

Allow me the same option: If you post, you are participating. Just because you do less of it of late or no longer contribute help is not "I don't participate".
You can participate (take part in) a conversation with someone you meet on the street, while not offering help or suggestions.

[UnwilfulExpenditure]

3 hours ago, bear said:

Allow me the same option: If you post, you are participating. Just because you do less of it of late or no longer contribute help is not "I don't participate".
You can participate (take part in) a conversation with someone you meet on the street, while not offering help or suggestions.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news... But this is a bit off topic bear - I'm issuing you with 13,000 re-education points and a week on the naughty bear step!  😂

[steven99]

On 7/5/2021 at 9:22 AM, Kian said:

Nowadays the rules of most forums are stupid. A guy asks who sells Ferrari cars. Ferrari can't say "I sell them" but maybe BMW can post the link to ferrari.com 🤔 In essence if you happen to have the solution to a specific problem, you must keep it for you otherwise it's self-promoting. That's how you endup with forums full of questions with superficial answers.

I would agree with the superficial answers to some questions, but that is why WHT has a direct experience requirement for when recommending a host.   If Ferrari was able to post, then any Ferrari dealer would post and now you have dozens of dealers saying the same thing and your back to where you were of figuring which dealer to go to.   Self-promo is a form of marketing and as everyone should know marketing does not always equal the actual experience.  At least with a recommendation from someone with experience with that dealer, you can narrow down the dealers to use instead of going through yet another list of dealers that say they can sell you a Ferrari for $1 but then later find out in the terms you can't actually drive, seat, even look at it.   There have been threads that I have wanted to post in on here and WHT and that no one else has answered but could not as it would be self promo or signature spam.  

In some ways I think mod actions should be more visible, like the infractions tab in the community profile being visible to everyone.   What do you think?    In forums that allow offers / ads threads, I personally think the poster should have x posts in a discussion community in x days and not just x posts and you're free to post forever.   At least in that way the poster has to stay active and then the community it self stays active.   Even a good post once a month would be fine as long as it is isn't a one liner but something detailed that actual helps.

And finally, no matter what community you use, if you want change in policies / rules then get on the moderation team and help steer the ship.