New EU tax rules

[nimonogi]

Check out our Advanced VAT Report.

Screenshot at http://www.goo.gl/sBYG8I

Edited January 5, 2015 by nimonogi
Screenshot

[zomex]

Check out our Advanced VAT Report.

Screenshot at http://www.goo.gl/sBYG8I

 

Can you send me more screenshots via PM

[Chris74]

Check out our Advanced VAT Report.

Screenshot at http://www.goo.gl/sBYG8I

 

Why is it necessary to provide a URL when ordering your VAT report?

[nimonogi]

Domain name is required as a security measure for preventing fraud.

[Chris74]

Can anyone recommend a better VAT report than the "advanced" one above? It isn't very advanced at all. Most people will only want to provide details of VAT that is within the EU but outside their country of origin and invoices where VAT has not been included - i.e outside the EU.

 

We don't need to provide our accountants with every individual transaction because all income that does not have an exception is considered to be local to our country and VAT applied. Unfortunately, this report lists all amounts for all transactions in all locations within the given time period, with no way to filter out the results based on location. The "VAT Rate" column is also broken. It doesn't include the VAT rates - they are all zero apart from some, which include product prices for some reason and not the VAT rates. (Edit - the report takes some values out of the "credit" column and puts them into the "VAT Rate" column".)

 

This report is not worth the money and it doesn't do what they say it does.

 

In a word - crap.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Chris74

[JulesR]

There isn't really anything for them to develop

I disagree.

 

* out-of-the-box WHMCS handles the new EU VAT rules (if you set it up right)

It creates rules but with incorrect values - though apparently this is intended behaviour. I'm not sure I understand the logic there. I wouldn't say this works "out-of-the-box" since you need to then find the correct VAT values for each country and then add the missing countries the module forgot to add - whoops! (they only released a fix for this recently).

 

* WHMCS is _NOT_ an accounting system - and you'll be doing your MOSS reporting based on your accounts

It's not an accounting system, I agree, but what it *is* is a billing area. It should know exactly all of your income (assuming you use WHMCS to generate all of your income), so based on this, it is relatively trivial to generate accounting modules for it. In fact, we have already done this.

 

Can anyone recommend a better VAT report than the "advanced" one above?

What are you looking for, specifically?

 

I could be mistaken, but I believe the "advanced" reporting system above is going to be useless when it comes to VAT MOSS. That is, at least useless to those in the UK. As a UK company who recently signed up for the VAT MOSS service, I recall being told that we would need to submit our reports every quarter and adhere to a specific format provided by HMRC. I haven't yet seen the paperwork or format they are referring to (we can't create our first report until the end of March, presumably) but from what I can gather, these reports are going to be essentially a list of countries within the EU and how much VAT you have charged for that respective country. Again, this is pure speculation but I very much doubt HMRC will ask for a list of every single transaction in that country. Possible, but unlikely.

 

We've looked into generating our own automated reports for VAT MOSS and believe this to be accomplishable. Is there anything non-UK hosts need to do that differs from the traditional VAT MOSS system? I honestly haven't looked into anything outside of the UK.

[Kian]

I was thinking about implementing VAT MOSS system in a module of mine but damn it's impossible that I can't find informations quicky. All gov websites are so messy and full of wall of text with pointless informations.

 

Long story short what the hell should we do? Generate an XML every month I suppose. Good. Show me this damned XML

[JulesR]

From the looks of their site and information you have 2 ways to submit your return. You can do it all manually from the HMRC portal or you can upload the necessary spreadsheet and they calculate your return from that. At least that's how it appears to work from within the UK, YMMV outside of that.

 

Check out page 11 from here: http://www.online-web-presentations.com/HMRC/files/pdf/14.15-14.45-MOSS-Registration.pdf

 

Our plan is to have WHMCS generate the spreadsheet and we can just upload it directly. I believe it may even be possible to upload it automatically straight to HMRC.

[Kian]

Thank you. Of course I was thinking about the spreadsheet/XML approach. The other one can't be made for humans. Anyway on page 11 I see a simple spreadsheet named "Union scheme Global return" I mean UNION and GLOBAL probably means that it's the same spreadsheet for all EU countries

 

Anyway back to topic it seems pretty doable like you said in a previous post. The most complicated part for me is that I don't know where I can download the spreadsheet. Anyone?

 

p.s. Stupid question. I already know the answer (a big "No"). I see all these gov website around... do they have API? I was thinking about automating the "upload" part.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Kian

[JulesR]

One thing I've learned is to never assume anything when it comes to taxes ...

 

(Start disclaimer)

All of my comments here are regards to the tax from a company based in the UK. For us, it looks as if we can simply download a spreadsheet, fill it out and then upload it back to HMRC (the government body which handles our tax here). If you're outside of the UK (I think you're in Italy?) then your paperwork and systems may be different, I can't say for sure. Please do not take anything I write here as accountancy advice. If you're the least bit unsure on the system and required paperwork then please consult a qualified accountant rather than relying on anything you read here. Tax isn't something you want to get wrong, as it could be very costly for you and your business.

(End disclaimer).

 

All that said, it looks like you have your own filing systems there. Out of curiosity, can you let us know what your process looks like? If we develop our own module for this, it may be something we could provide to others, so knowledge of other EU systems could prove useful.

 

For us, in the UK, we won't be able to download the spreadsheet until our first return is due at the end of March. This appears to be the cast for most VAT MOSS registered companies here.

 

In the UK the HMRC do have API's that may allow for the uploading of returns. Again, please consult your own tax bodies for information on this.

[Chris74]

The first step is actually exporting the info we require. So far there isn't an available way to do that. I don't have the programming knowledge to create my own reports so I'm relying on a third party option, which doesn't actually work unfortunately.

 

Regarding MOSS. My plan was to simply export the invoice data and then pass it to my accountants for them to deal with - so I wouldn't be getting involved in the actual MOSS submission - however, as others have mentioned - formatting a spreadsheet and uploading it to HMRC is unlikely to be too complicated.

 

I'm a UK based company. At the end of each quarter I provide my accountant with spreadsheets of our bank statements. The accountant will automatically assume that all income to the business is from the UK with 20% VAT - unless I provide evidence of payments that either do not include VAT, or that include EU VAT from different countries for MOSS submission.

 

Until now, individuals in the EU were required to pay our VAT rate, so this wasn't a problem - and business customers with VAT Id's were exempt. We don't have many clients outside the EU, or EU business (VAT registered) clients outside the UK, so until this change happened, we haven't bothered to provide any additional info to the accountants and have been losing 20% on only a small number of orders.

 

We will now need to account for all payments that include VAT from EU individuals and businesses. This represents a larger number of payments and we are now required by law to comply to these rules.

 

So, with the above in mind, our requirements are two fold.

 

We need to...

 

1. Export payment data for payments that are exempt from VAT - i.e countries outside the EU. (This should exclude invoices raised when adding account credits).

2. Export payment data for payments within the EU that are subject to VAT but are outside our home country.

 

I don't think either of those would be too complicated to achieve for someone who can create these reports - but the only VAT report I could find was the "Advanced" one mentioned in this thread - and that one doesn't actually work. It's completely broken, regardless of the fact that it doesn't contain the functionality to filter out payments outside our country and outside the EU.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Chris74

[Kian]

1. Export payment data for payments that are exempt from VAT - i.e countries outside the EU. (This should exclude invoices raised when adding account credits).

2. Export payment data for payments within the EU that are subject to VAT but are outside our home country.

Now it's clear. Ok let's say that I've already managed to create these 2 lists. What informations do you need in these lists? I mean... Client full name - VAT/TAX ID - Tax Rate - Tax Amount - Payment Date - Total amount (...) Can you clarify that for me? If necessary feel free to include a spreadsheet with sample data. I'm asking this because in one of my module I'm already storing transactions details with everything inside so it would be really easy for me to implement an "Export VAT MOSS" even in several formats and automatically every X days/months.

[nimonogi]

I don't think either of those would be too complicated to achieve for someone who can create these reports - but the only VAT report I could find was the "Advanced" one mentioned in this thread - and that one doesn't actually work. It's completely broken, regardless of the fact that it doesn't contain the functionality to filter out payments outside our country and outside the EU.

Chris, our Advanced VAT Report is tested on several WHMCS installation and used by dozens of WHMCS users.

Read the README.txt file and open a ticket if you have any issues. I can assure you the report it is working 100%.

 

We need to...

 

1. Export payment data for payments that are exempt from VAT - i.e countries outside the EU. (This should exclude invoices raised when adding account credits).

2. Export payment data for payments within the EU that are subject to VAT but are outside our home country.

Our report offers exporting to csv. From there you can sort and pretty much do whatever you want with the data.

I personally got advice from different accountants (including a professional from UK) and every one of them told me that the report has every single data they require to fill their forms. If I missed something, just let me know.

 

Also, if you need our report customized specifically to your needs, contact us for a quote.

[Kian]

I've implemented a beta of VAT MOSS support in one of my modules. It would be great if someone could test it and tell me if it's a fail or a good starting point. Preview of the dashboard. It generates separate reports for every country and currency. Dunno if I got the point.

[Chris74]

Now it's clear. Ok let's say that I've already managed to create these 2 lists. What informations do you need in these lists? I mean... Client full name - VAT/TAX ID - Tax Rate - Tax Amount - Payment Date - Total amount (...) Can you clarify that for me? If necessary feel free to include a spreadsheet with sample data. I'm asking this because in one of my module I'm already storing transactions details with everything inside so it would be really easy for me to implement an "Export VAT MOSS" even in several formats and automatically every X days/months.

 

Personally, this is what I would need as a UK business...

 

Three reports...

 

1. Zero VAT report for orders from countries outside EU.

Invoice number, Date raised, Date paid, Client & Company Name, Country, Order total.

 

2. Zero VAT report for orders from businesses in countries inside EU with VAT ID.

Invoice number, Date raised, Date paid, Client & Company Name, Country, VAT ID, Order total.

 

It is important that both these reports do not include invoices for purchasing credit because when you add credits, no VAT is applied, but further invoices are generated where those funds are used - so this would duplicate payments.

 

3. VAT report for EU orders outside home country (where EU VAT ID is not supplied).

Invoice number, Date raised, Date paid, Client & Company Name, Country, Order total, VAT percentage, VAT amount.

 

From my point of view, the report should include only completed orders that have been paid in full so the search should return only paid invoices for the time period.

 

Again, I would personally want to search on the paid dates, rather than the date raised because my accountant doesn't work from invoice data - only bank account info - but it might be useful to include a search for both. I imagine some people would want to create reports based on when the invoice was raised, rather than when it was paid.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Chris74

[Kian]

Why do you also need reports for transactions that are not part of VAT MOSS rules?

[Chris74]

Why do you also need reports for transactions that are not part of VAT MOSS rules?

 

Because we need to provide details of transactions where zero VAT is applied, otherwise our accountant will assume that UK VAT is payable. The reason is because they work from bank data, not from invoice data. The first two are not related to MOSS - we just need them.

 

To elaborate on this a little, for an EU business, regarding VAT there are four types of payments...

 

1. Payments in your home country that include your VAT rate.

2. Payments inside the EU, outside your home country that include other VAT rates.

3. Payments inside the EU, outside your home country from businesses who have VAT ID's (Zero VAT).

4. Payments outside the EU (Zero VAT).

 

As I've explained previously, the way that we do VAT (which may not necessarily be the best way, or the correct way) is to consider ALL income to the business through the bank as number 1 above "Payments in your home country that include your VAT rate" unless otherwise stated.

 

So our accountant will simply take all income within a given period and apply 20% UK VAT, unless we provide exceptions - as above, for which they will make an adjustment. The exceptions being, any payments that should not have VAT applied, and any payments that should have VAT applied at a different rate, for MOSS reporting. So they will take that info and apply it to the VAT return accordingly.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Chris74

[Kian]

The first two are not related to MOSS - we just need them.

Ok now I understand. I'm already working to add this feature since I already have all necessary informations.

[Kian]

Because we need to provide details of transactions where zero VAT is applied, otherwise our accountant will assume that UK VAT is payable. The reason is because they work from bank data, not from invoice data. The first two are not related to MOSS - we just need them.

 

To elaborate on this a little, for an EU business, regarding VAT there are four types of payments...

 

1. Payments in your home country that include your VAT rate.

2. Payments inside the EU, outside your home country that include other VAT rates.

3. Payments inside the EU, outside your home country from businesses who have VAT ID's (Zero VAT).

4. Payments outside the EU (Zero VAT).

 

As I've explained previously, the way that we do VAT (which may not necessarily be the best way, or the correct way) is to consider ALL income to the business through the bank as number 1 above "Payments in your home country that include your VAT rate" unless otherwise stated.

 

So our accountant will simply take all income within a given period and apply 20% UK VAT, unless we provide exceptions - as above, for which they will make an adjustment. The exceptions being, any payments that should not have VAT applied, and any payments that should have VAT applied at a different rate, for MOSS reporting. So they will take that info and apply it to the VAT return accordingly.

Ok Chris. Thank you for sharing your feedback with me. I've implemented this in my module (preview - the custom export feature is below). You can export transactions with all relevant informations. You can apply the follwing filters: country (any, specific country or group of countries like for example EU countries and Non-EU countries), currency (any or specific currency), type (everyone, businesses or individuals), range of dates (e.g. from 01-01-2015 to 31-01-2015). The module also uses an informative name for the generate file (e.g. Report Non-EU-2-Businesses-27-02-2015-27-03-2015.xls) but you can also change it if you want with something different.

 

Once again thank you for your feedback.

[Chris74]

Ok Chris. Thank you for sharing your feedback with me. I've implemented this in my module (preview - the custom export feature is below). You can export transactions with all relevant informations. You can apply the follwing filters: country (any, specific country or group of countries like for example EU countries and Non-EU countries), currency (any or specific currency), type (everyone, businesses or individuals), range of dates (e.g. from 01-01-2015 to 31-01-2015). The module also uses an informative name for the generate file (e.g. Report Non-EU-2-Businesses-27-02-2015-27-03-2015.xls) but you can also change it if you want with something different.

 

Once again thank you for your feedback.

 

Glad to help. I like your billing extension module - it looks great. Can I ask - is the price an annual fee of 95EUR ? Or is it a one off payment of 95EUR?

[Kian]

Annual since it's not a "fire and forget" module. I really want keep adding features forever based on feedbacks.

 

[OT]Long story short I'm tired of developing tens of different versions of the same module just because I have to adapt it to the specific needs of everyone. I hate to waste time with quotes and coding things that probably I've already done. One big module, one project and one definitive solution (youtube.com/watch?v=ZpDQJnI4OhU - this is the most off topic thing ever) because it sucks that we have to install 2 or 3 modules to do 1 single thing.[/OT]

[brian!]

in case you missed their blog/forum post, WHMCS have released their own VATMOSS Report...

 

http://forum.whmcs.com/showthread.php?99502-VATMOSS-Return-New-Report-Now-Available

http://docs.whmcs.com/EU_VAT_MOSS

[ronybarne]

Thanks for sharing the link. I was also looking for something similar. This was truly helpful.

[Kian]

Interesting, do they realize what they are going to end up doing is forcing USA companies to not do business with EU because of all the extra requirements. Maybe thats how they want it, but it does not seem to me that this mind set is beneficial to anyone but the people that make the rules get to keep their jobs. Its just flat out stupid...

It's not really stupid. Google, Amazon and several other corporations in Europe are "legally" evading taxes from years. Explain me this.

 

Amazon comes in Italy, opens huge facilities and hires lot of new employees to sell his products in Italy. 99,99% of their revenues come from Italy, the entire service is provided here in Italy, all employees are italian, they have an headquarter in Milan and they're a registered italian company BUT They pay taxes in Luxembourg. Same thing happens for Amazon in United Kingdom, Germany, France and Spain. They pay their taxes in Luxembourg where they only have an office with less than 10 employees and where there's nothing important. The (not) funny thing is that Amazon.com pays taxes in US. What if one day they decide to move their headquarter from Seattle to Luxembourg in order to pay less taxes for their revenues in United States?

 

If it's not Luxembourg it's Ireland (see Apple, Google, Starbucks, Facebook...). Companies have to start paying taxes in the country where they're getting money. Comply to VAT MOSS regulations doesn't cost anything. It's free, requires less than 15 minutes per month and it's beneficial to fight tax evasion. The alternative to this is that, sooner or later, every single company will move its headquarter to a low-tax country. Am I the only idiot who is supposed to pay taxes? Or should I move to Ireland?

 

Sorry for this post a little off-topic.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Kian