Refund Policies

[b0r3d]

sometimes a double payment issue is a paypal/WHMCS issue.

 

I recently had a customer who by mistake paid an invoice when they received this forgetting they had a paypal subscription set up, so this marked the invoice as paid, but then the Paypal subscription paid ther money again, which correct WHMCS placed this as a credit to the clients account. i contacted the client and he told me just to keep it as a credit and it would pay the next invoice, which it did but then the PP subscription still activated, giving the same situation, so i informed the cliuent of this and then refunded him 1 payment and removed the credit.

 

You hit the nail on the head. Never thought about that to be honest. That's probably what our customer ended up doing. He had a subscription on the 7th and the 14th. 14th being original. Makes sense now lol. Never really thought about that. He thought for awhile i had direct access to his/her paypal account and was withdrawing money.

 

 

I could care less about the money. Its the principle. I don't hide my TOS behind a locked vault. Is their, clearly written for you. You think I care about $4.99?

 

What kind of sentence is that "you think i care about $4.99?". Yes, you should. $4.99 x 100 is ??? exactly. Start caring, it goes a long way. You should really visit some small business seminars or something. Even if it's $1.50, it should be valued.

 

There is no principle as a business owner. It's about turnover,balancing your books and getting out of the minus + customer service/satisfaction period. This isn't highschool where you cross your arms out of principle. Do not forget who keeps you in business.

 

About your calculating quote. By your comment i'm going to assume you're a one man show. (NOTE: ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with this) but this is why a larger business has dedicated billing staff. They take care of that area.

 

 

No, the cashier will pocket it and lie. What can you prove? Nothing. Should of counted what you gave him/her in the first place.

 

You don't understand how the retail system works do you? No matter what country, it all works the same. If you read what i told you, my wife worked as a cashier. If you value your job to pay your bills without having a termination slip you don't defraud customers out of their money by pocketing it. Yes totally agree with you, there are some that do this and my wife worked side by side with one that did and was charged with theft over $5,000, breach of trust and some fraud charge.

 

I think all of our points are, it's about morals, integrity and honesty. If your business starts getting even the slightest draft of wind that it does something morally wrong, dishonest, * yadda yadda, all your hard work is down the drain, what was the point?

 

 

 

I don't know why you all jumped on the bandwagon that I don't like customers or anything like that. All customers enjoy our services, and unique features we provide to them such as DDoS protection. We most likely even provide more support regarding 3rd party mods/scripts then anyone else. But, I won't baby someone because they don't read our Terms Of Service. We rather answer support tickets then calculate, you get this refund, etc, etc. WHMCS will auto-credit over payments. That's it. Nothing further will happen.

 

I promise i'm not attacking you at all, but i'm trying to point a few things out to you as are other people. Our business supports ALL 3rd party apps to a point where we are no longer able to support it (Thus: Managed Services Included). Every piece of software softaculous offers we support. You know how hard that is? A good 50% of our customer base is non-english and they try hard to ask for support. Those are our toughest tickets to decipher what they mean.

 

We have the same philosophy about our TOS/AUP, but only when it applies to the legal matters. I don't want my IP blocks blacklisted like one of my customers did with MSN. We've been battling MSN to have our IP removed from their deny list. Had to join their junk mail program. Our TOS/AUP is a protection for both buyer/seller but there is a point as a 'decent' business man i'll always ignore terms and go out of my way to allow things.

 

Nothing better than getting a glowing review when i do something that wow's a customer because they are so used to getting the fine print excuse. We don't completely ignore our TOS/AUP as it would end up abused if people seen this all the time in reviews, but times to call where you do what's right - PERIOD.

 

We pay as you probably pay a lot of money for our servers. We depend on a good relationship with our customers to ensure we remain in business. I love what i do personally and been doing it since i was 14 (1997) You do the math on my age lol. You have the right idea with credit and all as you stated, but your attitude towards how to treat a customer and the principle excuse is where it goes wrong.

[WHMCS John]

This thread has been split from the original thread http://forum.whmcs.com/showthread.php?48217-Refund-Request

[disgruntled]

The bottom line here and we all need to be providing it, is good customer service. we may not have the biggest company (i am a one man band) but i still make sure i put in the effort where it counts, customer service is probably the only area where you cant make a mistake. dont get me wrong, there are other areas where a mistake would be bad for business, but customer service is the front line and a mistake there wont go without costly results.

 

Yes, i pay a lot for my servers, we all do, thats why we need to keep clients on our side, if that means bending over backwards even when as you say something is their fault, thats what you do.

 

subscriptions can be easy, or in situations like these they can be a pain just because of the fact they repeat and the credit doesnt sit.

 

Just one point though, you do realise many of the modules actually support refunding right from the admin area? refunds are not difficult in these cases or time consuming.

[b0r3d]

The bottom line here and we all need to be providing it, is good customer service. we may not have the biggest company (i am a one man band) but i still make sure i put in the effort where it counts, customer service is probably the only area where you cant make a mistake. dont get me wrong, there are other areas where a mistake would be bad for business, but customer service is the front line and a mistake there wont go without costly results.

 

Yes, i pay a lot for my servers, we all do, thats why we need to keep clients on our side, if that means bending over backwards even when as you say something is their fault, thats what you do.

 

subscriptions can be easy, or in situations like these they can be a pain just because of the fact they repeat and the credit doesnt sit.

 

Just one point though, you do realise many of the modules actually support refunding right from the admin area? refunds are not difficult in these cases or time consuming.

 

 

One man band can be more successful than a 10 man band so not to worry and good for you keeping up with your customers

 

We're a 4 man/woman band 2 support 1 sales 1 billing and i stress it on a large scale that customer service is more important than the value of the services. 9 times out of 10 i find customers don't mind paying more for their hosting as long as the customer service when they need it, is there.

 

People these days just want to be treated decently considering what most businesses are like these days. I know i'd pay few more dollars to ensure i was treated fairly. I guess in my own life experience in several jobs dealing with customers i've learned a few things. One of the most important is, customers are people, not numbers. Fine print is the worst tool to use when it involves money and never argue with a customer.

 

Anywho, i'm glad this conversation stayed rational and didn't get mean with anyone. It's nice to see a decent debate.

[easyhosting]

One man band can be more successful than a 10 man band so not to worry and good for you keeping up with your customers

 

Anywho, i'm glad this conversation stayed rational and didn't get mean with anyone. It's nice to see a decent debate.

 

i totally agree with both these points. as it seems that now adays no matter what industry their seems to be more businesses bothered with profit over customers care/service

 

look at retail, a few years ago you went to your local corner store and the store keeper almost knew you by name and knew your likes and dislikes. now a lot of corner stores have either closed or been taken over by franchised national retailers where it is hard to get a smile from the staff let alone a "hello how are you today"

[b0r3d]

i totally agree with both these points. as it seems that now adays no matter what industry their seems to be more businesses bothered with profit over customers care/service

 

look at retail, a few years ago you went to your local corner store and the store keeper almost knew you by name and knew your likes and dislikes. now a lot of corner stores have either closed or been taken over by franchised national retailers where it is hard to get a smile from the staff let alone a "hello how are you today"

 

Funny you say that - I was just talking about this with our pharmacy oddly enough. Used to know everything about me including what meds i took for my chronic migraines. Now with the large franchise that bought them out the new staff are as ignorant as it comes, we moved our dealings to another Pharmacy because of it.

 

Sad really but the truth and reality of it, be it virtual or physical goods/services.

 

Hell, my cable company a multi billion dollar business refunds my money on overpayments for example. Credit is their policy but even they do it. It's just not worth the loss of customers, reputation.

 

I think my biggest issue with all the comments is the "you think i care about $4.99?". That's absolutely jaw dropping and very cocky. I value every dollar that passes through our business, never in my 16 years in business have i seen someone say that. Though it was in reference to caring about refunding $4.99 it adds up.

 

Use the recent WHMCS hack as an example. You think they would go broke refunding $15.95? Now lets multiple that by 25,000+ It'd break a business.

 

My not so important message to any new business looking for advice. Value every dollar and value your customers as people looking for something/someone they can trust. You'll have a long term customer if you follow that advice. I'm no expert in any field but my own business. I simply believe strongly that select key points in business ethics 101 must be followed.

[Bubka3]

I think my biggest issue with all the comments is the "you think i care about $4.99?". That's absolutely jaw dropping and very cocky. I value every dollar that passes through our business, never in my 16 years in business have i seen someone say that. Though it was in reference to caring about refunding $4.99 it adds up.

Its the idea that you all think I am profiting off of $4.99 for that statement. All I want is for people to read the tos, and bolded + highlighted notices included in all billing related emails. If you can't bother to read it, why should I do anything for you?

 

We'll go out of our way to issue a refund for over payment to long term customers, customers with a valid point, those who ask nicely, paid a high amount, etc. When you go and say " F**K you, your taking money out of my PayPal account" and then want a refund for $5, no, waste of time, read the fine print. It's funny, as those who pay lower, generally get the fine print while those who pay higher ask nicely, don't accuse us of stealing and all get past our term.

[othellotech]

For instance, in the united kingdom, there is such a thing called the distance selling act, this means that anybody selling anything, over the telephone, by mail order ON THE INTERNET. has a legal obligation to provide and comply with at least a 14 day cooling off period, this means your client CAN instigate a refund and cancel any services you offer no matter what your terms and conditions state

You need to read the DSR again

 

WRONG. Your TOS must legally be in favour of the consumer when it mentions anything regarding payments/refunds/cancellations.

WRONG - the obligation is not to make it at the *detriment* of the consumer - i.e. weighted in your favour - it most certainly does NOT have to the in their favour - the ideal EU law compatible ToS are customer/supplier neutral - This is B2C contracts, B2B have no such requirements.

 

However there are specific rules relating to refunds - if the "overcharge" is done by the merchant (e.g. card charged twice for same item) then you have to refund - no ifs, no buts, no arguing - you're *obliged* to refund it.

 

If it's for a return (outside of any statutory cooling-off periods) it's at the discretion of the seller.

[disgruntled]

We'll go out of our way to issue a refund for over payment to long term customers, customers with a valid point, those who ask nicely, paid a high amount, etc.

 

It's funny, as those who pay lower, generally get the fine print while those who pay higher ask nicely, don't accuse us of stealing and all get past our term.

 

These tell me only one thing, you value the money over your customers, but your customers however large or small an amount are the people paying you that money. Why should it matter whether they are paying you £1 or £1000? Each and every client should be treated in the same fair way, this is basic business. You might offer incentives to a client to become a £1000 customer but the way in which you handle a client should never change at all.

 

You need to read the DSR again

 

I think your right, much as i do try its hard to keep up with all the legal trappings of running a business as well as keeping on top of client matters. something to add to my todo list.

 

Another item, have my terms checked over and be sure they are legal.

Edited June 15, 2012 by disgruntled

[disgruntled]

Well this was an enlightening find i must say.

 

How may EU service providers (hosts us all of us who provision automagically) do this?

 

for the provision of services, if the performance of the contract has begun with the consumer's consent before the end of the cancellation period and the supplier has provided the written confirmation and additional information (including information that the cancellation rights will end as soon as performance of the contract begins);

 

 

This is most definitely something we all must place into our ordering process.

[easyhosting]

lean the DSR (Distance Selling Regulations 2000)

 

Originally Posted by Distance Selling Regulations

Distance Selling Regulations

 

The Distance Selling Regulations 2000 are designed to protect customers who are not physically present with the seller at the time of purchase. They cover purchases made via email and the internet, together with telephone and mail order.

 

They only apply to transactions between businesses and consumers (individuals acting outside the course of their business) and do not include business-to-business contracts and auctions

[disgruntled]

lean the DSR (Distance Selling Regulations 2000)

 

there was an amendment in 2005 which alters some of the regulations held in it, but yes i know business/business are not affected because a business is not/cannot be a consumer.

 

The consumer is anybody that purchases from a business in a private none business capacity, so that's about 96/7% of my client base. I am fully aware of what a consumer is.

 

However to go back to the point of my quote of the DSR which seems to have been missed, we provide services and not products, so there are parts of the DSR that actually have no effect so long as we follow the procedure to outline this before the conclusion of a contract, so basically, before the service(s) are provisioned and probably if im reading it correctly, before the client makes payment.

 

Again we are going off the original topic, so i guess this will be split off again.

Edited June 15, 2012 by disgruntled

[srpurdy]

I dunno I kind of look at it like this.

 

All legal stuff aside and all that just looking at it as a businessman.

 

Option A: Customer gets money back. (His opinion of the company might be) hey it didn't work out but I got my money back.

 

Option B: Customer gets the run around or nothing back (his opinion of the company might be) those ******* stole my money don't deal with them.

 

Which word of mouth advertising do you want?

 

Pretty simple really.

 

Personally I rather option a, but that's just me.

[easyhosting]

I dunno I kind of look at it like this.

 

All legal stuff aside and all that just looking at it as a businessman.

 

Option A: Customer gets money back. (His opinion of the company might be) hey it didn't work out but I got my money back.

 

Option B: Customer gets the run around or nothing back (his opinion of the company might be) those ******* stole my money don't deal with them.

 

Which word of mouth advertising do you want?

 

Pretty simple really.

 

Personally I rather option a, but that's just me.

 

so if you have a client who has used 28 days of a months hosting before he cancels.

 

a) would you refund him the months fee

b) try and find out why he is leaving and try and keep him as a client

c) just say thank you for your custom, you are always welcome back (no refund)

 

also if you terminate a client would you still refund him

[srpurdy]

so if you have a client who has used 28 days of a months hosting before he cancels.

 

a) would you refund him the months fee

b) try and find out why he is leaving and try and keep him as a client

c) just say thank you for your custom, you are always welcome back (no refund)

 

also if you terminate a client would you still refund him

 

If I have a 30 day money back than yes. This would depend on what the product is, but since your using hosting as your example. I would refund them after 28 days yes. It doesn't actually cost me anything in most cases. Because I have to pay my bills wither I have 1 or 200 sites on a server it costs me exactly the same amount. I rather keep the customer. So I would try to keep the customer by offering some sort of discount. If that is not possible than I would refund them simple as that. I'm not going to cause damage to my business for a few dollars. The integrity of my business is more important than those few dollars.

 

Edit: Also if it was a yearly package as well with say 6 months used almost 7. I would just refund 6 months.

 

As for an account termination yes. is the simple answer. As in my point of view even if they are doing something illegal. It's just as illegal for me to keep money that isn't mine. Unless I can deem(Prove) they did damages that effected my business financially. In which case this would change. So it would depend on the situation.

 

With a no refund policy how is that companies protect themselves from fraud. I've had on occasion someone purchase something using someone elses paypal account. It was completely obvious to me this happen. I refunded that account before paypal even got a notice. Which came several weeks later. So do no refund businesses just keep the money in that situation too? Like seriously are people that bad off?

 

I always look long term. I don't have a wall in front of me looking at all the "Now" riches I look down the road. what I do today will affect what happens in the future.

Edited June 15, 2012 by srpurdy

[srpurdy]

Also I'm not suggesting you'll always avoid an upset customer. But I feel like most times you have control over it. It's really down to how you want your business run. Respect goes a long way. I've had people throwing they're money at me to work with me, because I have respect for the people I do business with. I've even turned down $1000's in some cases because of workload. I couldn't handle the load. Simple as that. I know some companies would take the money and make the customer wait god knows how long. Short Term great. I got a couple extra grand. Long Term I got an angry customer that will never suggest me to anybody. I've made a lot of business from word of mouth. I've never spent a cent on advertising. I know this is going a bit off topic, but it's somewhat related in the sense that money now doesn't always make perfect business sense.

[easyhosting]

If I have a 30 day money back than yes. This would depend on what the product is, but since your using hosting as your example. I would refund them after 28 days yes.

 

what if they have been a client for 3 months on a monthly plan and 28 days into the 3rd month they cancel

 

As for an account termination yes. is the simple answer. As in my point of view even if they are doing something illegal. It's just as illegal for me to keep money that isn't mine.

 

If they breach your TOS then it is not illegal for you to refuse to refund them. Also did you know if they has used your services for a phishing site or child porn site, then if after you terminate them you are committing an offence if you provide them with the files and/or a backup of the phishing/porn site

[srpurdy]

what if they have been a client for 3 months on a monthly plan and 28 days into the 3rd month they cancel

 

3 Months on a month billing cycle and they cancel with 2 days left. I'd give them 1 month refund. (not 3 obviously)

I know it doesn't make much sense to some, but what would I do. I refund them 20 cents for 2 days not used or give them nothing. Where if I give them back a month. It's always a more positive outcome. I'm guanteed almost a positive outcome. Most probably wouldn't expect anything back. My Data Center for example gives me back everything I don't use also. I guess in this situation maybe it's more business decision on how you want to handle situations like that.

 

 

If they breach your TOS then it is not illegal for you to refuse to refund them. Also did you know if they has used your services for a phishing site or child porn site, then if after you terminate them you are committing an offence if you provide them with the files and/or a backup of the phishing/porn site

 

I didn't actually know that about those type of sites, but I wouldn't give them the files anyway even not knowing that.

 

I know in other cases it may not be illegal to not refund. For me it's not a matter on wither it's legal for me to keep the money. It's matter of word of mouth advertising. It's way more powerful than any other form of advertising. Even customers that are no longer customers make you do better. I think the fact is many companies forget that. They just think narrow minded and once that person isn't a customer anymore it doesn't matter at that point. I don't do that because it actually does matter. Even if people convince themselves otherwise. They're is companies I'll never do business with again for that simple fact, and I don't recommend them to anyone. In-fact I even tell people to avoid them because of it. In the long term treating customers the way some companies do always is counter-productive no matter how you look at it.

 

With all that said I don't give my business money to just any company. I know this might come from WHMCS, but I'm actually a very happy customer even with the problems from the security stuff recently. (just so my point doesn't get mis-understood) I just think by setting up certain situations in your favor at times it's like shooting yourself in the foot. It will eventually go that direction at some point or another and than with bad policies you end up doing yourself more harm than good. With good polices and morals you do yourself way more good than it may seem.

 

Part of that steams from the fact many businesses are run by numbered accountants that have no personal skills what so ever, and don't understand people, and only understand numbers that don't actually stack up when you bring personality into that equation.

[Strother]

Here's a simple question in a complicated discussion. It assumes everyone answering is a legitimate business owner.

 

If a customer has paid you money that you did not earn, or don't deserve, even if it is through the customers own lack of knowledge or failure to stop paying, how can you justify not returning that money?

 

When you do work for which you deserve payment, don't you expect the client to live up to their end of the bargain and pay you? Don't they deserve the same treatment when the have paid you for work you did not do, or earn (again, even if it is through their own error)?

[disgruntled]

Here's a simple question in a complicated discussion. It assumes everyone answering is a legitimate business owner.

 

If a customer has paid you money that you did not earn, or don't deserve, even if it is through the customers own lack of knowledge or failure to stop paying, how can you justify not returning that money?

 

When you do work for which you deserve payment, don't you expect the client to live up to their end of the bargain and pay you? Don't they deserve the same treatment when the have paid you for work you did not do, or earn (again, even if it is through their own error)?

 

This was the initial trigger to the debate strother, i dont know nor care whether that post was legitimate or not, i would say that isnt the concern of us here at the forum, but it has sparked off a very interesting debate.

 

I am with you on this, if your not entitled to it in some way whether earning it, even a donation, it should always go back to where it came from. not doing so is just ludicrous. these things happen and it may not be the fault of your company, but that doesn't mean you should keep it. that as srpurdy stated will do more harm to your company than the money is worth.

 

In the long run what might be a few pounds or a few thousand pounds is never going to be worth more than your companies reputation. If you think about it in the long view, those few pounds could eventually cost you your business.

Edited June 16, 2012 by disgruntled

[Strother]

In the long run what might be a few pounds or a few thousand pounds is never going to be worth more than your companies reputation.

 

Absolutely.

[Matt28376]

BTW thought you all might be interested since I got you all going with this as it was my forum post (I was away on holidays for the last week which is why I hadn't replied earlier, not because I was a spammer lol)

I had paid via credit card not paypal which is why I couldn't cancel the payment unless I reported it as a fraudulant charge which I've been told I still can because I requested in writing for cancelation and whmcs replied that they had received my request and then I also have in writing me confirming for them that I want to cancel.

[jin]

Originally Posted by m8internet View Post

Yes, looks like another one post wonder, paid to post and provide negative comments

 

The thread was called "feedback" and the description says they want to hear even the negative.

 

Has it ever come to your attention that maybe they never joined the forums because, well just look at the replies in the thread here, who wants to join when these are the type of so called "professional people" you have to deal with.

 

The threads here are nothing more than a flaming forums and I for one am getting pretty disgusted with it.

 

Now Liam you are a professional.

 

If it turns out to be true I am sure they will be in contact with Liam, if not then the thread should be removed.

 

But Liam if what this person says is true, providing 2 months is pretty shabby, they should be getting back the 4 "as long as the directions were followed"

[jin]

BTW thought you all might be interested since I got you all going with this as it was my forum post (I was away on holidays for the last week which is why I hadn't replied earlier, not because I was a spammer lol)

I had paid via credit card not paypal which is why I couldn't cancel the payment unless I reported it as a fraudulant charge which I've been told I still can because I requested in writing for cancelation and whmcs replied that they had received my request and then I also have in writing me confirming for them that I want to cancel.

 

Do update us on the outcome please.

 

Goodluck, I believe it will work out for you.

[disgruntled]

Do update us on the outcome please.

 

Goodluck, I believe it will work out for you.

 

i dont know if you noticed, but this thread was split off from the thread you are responding to? also from what i can see the only person flaming anybody here or attempting to do so, is you.

 

We had a debate on the ethics of non-refund policies, people were, and still are free to join into the debate, or not, nobody asked anybody or forced anybody else to join in, that was free will and with such a fragile subject was always destined to receive strong views on how things should be done.

 

I personally enjoyed the debate and i learned a lot from it, as i am sure many reading it will do. whether anybody takes any notice or ignore, thats their choice to make, its their business to run.