markb1439 Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Hmm, I'm a little confused about Cloudmin, Virtualmin, etc. (I'm used to using HyperVM to set up VPSs, then installing WHM/cPanel on those VPSs to create hosting environments.) Can Cloudmin essentially replace HyperVM as a tool for creating and managing VPSes? And, if I create a VPS with Cloudmin, can I then install whatever I want on it? Is it essentially a regular VPS...a blank slate that I can use as I would any other VPS? What OS templates are supported? (I'm primarily interested in CentOS). Also, if I create a VPS with Cloudmin for a customer, does the customer then have to use Virtualmin to control it? Or is it a blank slate for them too? I'm just wondering how the products interact, and whether they require each other. Thanks to anyone who can clarify this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siforek Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 There's only 2 reasons not to use Virtuozzo.. You're either a budget VPS host and can't afford it, or you need XEN.. That's it. Those saying things like "virtuozzo sucks, etc" obviously have no idea why so many hosts use it.. In fact, if you don't absolutely need Xen and have never tried Virtuozzo as either a client or host I highly suggest trying it out You may find, like many that the higher priced licenses are in fact worth it. You get what you pay for! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markb1439 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Mmm, there are other valid reasons not to use Virtuozzo...unfair pricing that makes it impossible for many hosts to be profitable if they use it...horror stories about support, etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwellJoe Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Hey guys, I'm one of the developers on the Webmin/Virtualmin/Cloudmin project, and one of our users suggested I chime in here. So, here I am. Happy to answer any questions. Hmm, I'm a little confused about Cloudmin, Virtualmin, etc. (I'm used to using HyperVM to set up VPSs, then installing WHM/cPanel on those VPSs to create hosting environments.) Can Cloudmin essentially replace HyperVM as a tool for creating and managing VPSes? And, if I create a VPS with Cloudmin, can I then install whatever I want on it? Is it essentially a regular VPS...a blank slate that I can use as I would any other VPS? What OS templates are supported? (I'm primarily interested in CentOS). Cloudmin manage virtualized systems of many types (currently Xen, vserver, Zones, and EC2). A couple of days ago, we started hearing from refugees from HyperVM, and started work on OpenVZ support. We expect that to be included in the next release of Cloudmin on Monday or Tuesday. Cloudmin is roughly a similar product to HyperVM. We didn't spend any time with HyperVM during development, and our goals and priorities probably don't necessarily match up precisely with the things HyperVM does and why it does them, but in the general sense of "Can I do the same things I currently do with HyperVM", the answer is mostly yes. Our goals were to answer our customers needs for a cloud computing management platform for web hosting, and we're getting pretty close to achieving those goals. A Cloudmin VPS instance is a blank slate, as you say, and can run pretty much anything you want inside of it. It happens to support easy installation and management of Virtualmin (Professional or GPL) and Webmin if they are installed on the VPS, but you don't have to use Virtualmin to use Cloudmin. You could install any control panel you like or none at all within a Cloudmin-managed instance. Just like you can, and many people do, install Virtualmin into a Virtuozzo or HyperVM or other VPS. Note that there is some value in having Webmin installed, so that additional functionality is available (things like status monitoring and various usage data from within the VPS). We plan to release a stripped down ultralight version of Webmin (called something like "Cloudmin Agent" or "Cloudmin Monitor") that just provides the RPC and status functions, so folks don't feel like they're running something they don't "need". Webmin is actually pretty light on its own (about 10MB memory usage), but it does take a bit of disk space in a full install, so we'll accommodate folks who like to keep it light. That'll probably be available in another week or two. No. Virtualmin is not for working with VPS systems at all. It has no concern with where it runs. It is a web hosting control panel (comparable to LXAdmin, cPanel, Plesk, etc.). Virtualmin is not required to use Cloudmin, and Cloudmin is not required to use Virtualmin. They do, however, work well together, and can provide some additional capabilities if you do happen to use them together. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siforek Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Mmm, there are other valid reasons not to use Virtuozzo...unfair pricing that makes it impossible for many hosts to be profitable if they use it...horror stories about support, etc. Back in the SWSoft days I had a few support horror stories myself, but things change/get better. If you're not a partner or can't get a substantial discount from your DC then you'd obviously think the pricing is unfair. Just looked around real quick and the highest "discounted price" I could find was $20 per VPS.. I'm paying $5 per VPS, and that $5 saves me far more than that every month in time and hassle. Plus customers love it.. Virtuozzo hosting generally costs more, everyone knows it and people ARE willing to pay for it for a reason. To each his own 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salman75 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 We are considering the following alternates: Virtuozzo Citrix Xenserver Enterprise Edition Windows Server 2008 DataCenter Edition with Hyper-V If you need a Windows guest, then you have to go with Xen. I heard that Citrix Xenserver was great but they recently cut out the main management tools and created a separate product called Xenserver Essentials, which is very pricey now. None of these have a WMCS module yet so that really sucks! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siforek Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 We are considering the following alternates: Virtuozzo Citrix Xenserver Enterprise Edition Windows Server 2008 DataCenter Edition with Hyper-V If you need a Windows guest, then you have to go with Xen. I heard that Citrix Xenserver was great but they recently cut out the main management tools and created a separate product called Xenserver Essentials, which is very pricey now. None of these have a WMCS module yet so that really sucks! A Virtuozzo module will be here in a few weeks Also, one reason many find that Virtuozzo isn't affordable is you generally have to pay extra for PIM(admin control via your web browser) or use VZMC(win/lin application/only installable on one workstation at once w/standard license).. If you're resourceful you can usually work something out with your DC 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salman75 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 A Virtuozzo module will be here in a few weeks Really, how do you know? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
othellotech Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 A Virtuozzo module will be here in a few weeks As will a Xen Enterprise one 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hightekhosting Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Also, one reason many find that Virtuozzo isn't affordable is you generally have to pay extra for PIM(admin control via your web browser) Who told you that? We're a Parallels partner and I can tell you now, PIM/PMC is all included in the Virtuozzo licence. If your licence provider is charging you for PIM/PMC, then your being ripped off! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siforek Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Who told you that? We're a Parallels partner and I can tell you now, PIM/PMC is all included in the Virtuozzo licence. If your licence provider is charging you for PIM/PMC, then your being ripped off! That's what I'm saying.. ThePlanet used to try to charge me extra for VZPP, but PIM is a standard included feature to my knowledge, yet if you've got some extra time call around and see how many people charge more than the licenses themselves 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FazeWire Web Services Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 We are developing an in-house panel for ourselves. ETA: 1-2 weeks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easyhosting Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 IMPORTANT NEWS. We have received a long notice from our VPS supplier but mainly this paragraph says it all "We're very sorry about this platform switch, but with the owner of HyperVM committing suicide, and then his father deciding to not continue HyperVM and have it shut down, we have had no choice but to leave that platform quickly. " 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salman75 Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Yes, I think we all already know that: http://forum.lxlabs.com/index.php?t=msg&th=12468&start=0& 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uhhosting Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 That's what I'm saying.. ThePlanet used to try to charge me extra for VZPP, but PIM is a standard included feature to my knowledge, yet if you've got some extra time call around and see how many people charge more than the licenses themselves You used to have to pay extra. But they changed the licensing model last year, making it cheaper and generally more sensible. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siforek Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 You used to have to pay extra. But they changed the licensing model last year, making it cheaper and generally more sensible. Yeah, VZPP was extra.. PIM is way better now 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNodashi Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I still don't see how Virtuzzo can be a replacement for HyperVM. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberneticos Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I still don't see how Virtuzzo can be a replacement for HyperVM. Exactly, it can't. Who developed the hypervm module ? Matt and Crew ? (sorry for my ignorance, I had never used it, although we decided to the same day dude hung himself. Still sounds so awefull, damn.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msaunders Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I still don't see how Virtuzzo can be a replacement for HyperVM. Why can't it ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberneticos Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Virtuozzo != xen 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNodashi Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Why can't it ? Virtuzzo is NOT XEN, and does NOT offer full virtualization. Many ppl have asked for Virtuzzo for a long time, and now that a XEN control panel has come to an end, it needs to be replaced with a Virtuzzo one? I simply don't see the point. There's a HUGE difference in Full Virtualization (the way XEN / KVM / VMWare / etc does it), and only offers software virtulization. It's not really virtualization. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msaunders Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Yes , I know what the difference is . Some customers specifically need Xen , some dont care less . It all depends on your target market. If your advertising Xen containers, then thats different . If your offering VPS hosting , Virtuozzo is a perfectly viable alternative. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easyhosting Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 All you have to do is look at the poll http://forum.whmcs.com/showthread.php?t=21190 to see exactly which of the 5 people want. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberneticos Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 It all depends on your target market. It depends on much more than that. Let me give you the reasons why we use Xen. Maybe that will help you and others understand why we don't want to switch: - Little overhead - Tight securty - Very easy to use - Open source I do NOT want to use anything else but Xen. And, again, we are looking for an alternative, not a completely new solution. MODERATOR: Please merge all threads that talk about "The new replacement for HyperVM", thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNodashi Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 It depends on much more than that. Let me give you the reasons why we use Xen. Maybe that will help you and others understand why we don't want to switch: - Little overhead - Tight securty - Very easy to use - Open source I do NOT want to use anything else but Xen. And, again, we are looking for an alternative, not a completely new solution. MODERATOR: Please merge all threads that talk about "The new replacement for HyperVM", thanks. And, it offers Full Virtualization, which Virtuzzo doesn't. - It can run Windows VPS's - FreeBSD VPS's - one broken VPS doesn't affect others, i.e. with memory leaks ot run-away processes - when services (like named / apache / mysql / etc) on the host node gets restarted, the VPS's don't get affected by it. - no overselling ( which is probably why so many ppl love Virtuzzo - they can oversell by 100% - 200%) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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