nickrober Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 I've searched all over and I can't find it. Does anyone know where I could get a version of the default template without all the tables and instead using div's? I understand tables can be used for displaying data, but its just not right to use them for the layout too. It makes it very annoying to customize... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jozeph Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Yes. Our template uses divs+css. But some parts where is necessary create tables still using <tables> tag. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickrober Posted October 29, 2008 Author Share Posted October 29, 2008 No. This should not be in a table: <table width="80%" align="center"><tr><td width="50%"> <table width="100%" height="125" class="clientareatable" cellspacing="1"><tr class="clientareatableactive"><td style="padding:10px;"> <strong>{$clientsdetails.firstname} {$clientsdetails.lastname} {if $clientsdetails.companyname}({$clientsdetails.companyname}){/if}</strong><br /> {$clientsdetails.address1}, {$clientsdetails.address2}<br /> {$clientsdetails.city}, {$clientsdetails.state}, {$clientsdetails.postcode}<br /> {$clientsdetails.country}<br /> {$clientsdetails.email}<br /><br /> <a href="clientarea.php?action=details"><img src="images/details.gif" border="0" hspace="5" align="absmiddle" alt="" />{$LANG.clientareaupdateyourdetails}</a>{if $addfundsenabled} <a href="clientarea.php?action=addfunds"><img src="images/affiliates.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="" /> {$LANG.addfunds}</a>{/if} </td></tr></table> </td><td width="50%" align="center"> <table width="100%" height="125" class="clientareatable" cellspacing="1"><tr class="clientareatableactive"><td style="padding:10px;"> <strong>{$LANG.accountstats}</strong><br /> {$LANG.statsnumproducts}: <strong>{$stats.productsnumactive}</strong> ({$stats.productsnumtotal})<br /> {$LANG.statsnumdomains}: <strong>{$stats.numactivedomains}</strong> ({$stats.numdomains})<br /> {$LANG.statsnumtickets}: <strong>{$stats.numtickets}</strong><br /> {$LANG.statsnumreferredsignups}: <strong>{$stats.numaffiliatesignups}</strong><br /> {$LANG.statscreditbalance}: <strong>{$stats.creditbalance}</strong><br /> {$LANG.statsdueinvoicesbalance}: <strong>{if $stats.numdueinvoices>0}<font color="#cc0000">{/if}{$stats.dueinvoicesbalance}{if $stats.numdueinvoices>0}</font>{/if}</strong><br /> </td></tr></table> </td></tr></table> Thats how the whole thing is... Too cumbersome to wade through all of that when looking for something. Tables should only be used to display data, in a table like fashion, like using excel. You wouldn't use excel to do the entire layout of your website would you? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisGooding Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I side with nick on this one.... I have thought on many occasions that I may redo all the files removing tables and replacing with divs, but it would be such a nightmare each time an update was released.... So I just live with it for now. I would be very impressed if someone did have... a) A complete Div-only version of WHMCS b) A solution to ensure updates are easy to get through 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickrober Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 It really wouldn't be hard, just very very annoying. I was very surprised to see all tables when I opened up the files for editing. Div's are a lot more efficient in my opinion. Tables should only be used for what they are made for, being tables. If the team were to spend about a day maybe two they could get all the template files working well in divs and css. I believe phpbb doesn't even use tables anymore (could be wrong on that)... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apollo1 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Hi guys.. I don't have much experience with divs. One thing I don't understand about using divs over tables is, how do you position where your divs actually appear? I keep thinking in the context of placing content within table cells to position it so I'm a little confused. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAJI26 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I'm no designer either but I guess you can do it using floats, margins... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apollo1 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Is there any entry level tutorial or web based course out there which gives a novice an introduction to this "tableless" approach?? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herpherp Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 tables/divs argument is getting stale, 1 is not more efficient than the other and tables have a far greater reach than divs. Quoted from the original poster "I understand tables can be used for displaying data, but its just not right to use them for the layout too." Your whole site/template is data. As far as layout, tables are really the only true way to get a great looking layout. All of these templates that claim "no tables web 2.0 style" Should change to "plain site with no character but I have my own pictures" To me all these templates/sites are starting to look the same with no originality besides color, text, images and roll over effects. The whole tables argument has arisen by rumor that with css and the like that tables will not be utilized anymore, well tables are utilized within css and still legitimate(and needed) code... Tables can be confusing at first but once you dive in and realize what the results are, they are of great use. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apollo1 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Tables can be confusing at first but once you dive in and realize what the results are, they are of great use. You are absolutely right, and I find them very useful in my experience. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickrober Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 What about standards? On Table-based Design… I've seen that design in every browser I can, under Linux, Windows and Macintosh platforms, and it looks practically the same. It's rock solid. Score one for the tables. Then again, that's a lot of code to wade through every time we want to change something in the site. That could be a problem. If a Content Management System (CMS) is used, it will also add extra complexity to the way the content must be formatted -- not exactly user-friendly. I think it took me this long to whip out the design because I was very rusty on the methodologies involved. If I had to do it again, I'd probably cut that time by one or two hours. I would describe the experience of working with table-based design as being a lot of grunt work. I was constantly amazed at the way the design advanced, though. Working with pure CSS-based design, I've become accustomed to breaking up designs all the time and having to trace back my steps to hunt down bugs selectively. I didn't have to do any of that here. I just had to keep pumping tables into the design. Let's see how the CSS fares. On CSS-based Design… Building the design in CSS felt much better. The immediacy of the changes and clarity of the code made me feel more in control of the process. Whereas working with tables felt like building with lego bricks, with incremental changes, CSS felt more like working with a highly trained professional -- I issued a set of orders and watched as they were carried out. There are significant savings in bandwidth, too. By placing the styles in their own file and using the same file for the whole site, they would be even more visible. Keeping the layout information apart from the content also provides all sorts of benefits. In the future, I could redesign this site completely without touching the content, as exemplified by the css Zen Garden. There's also the added value of accessibility. In all likelihood, a screen reader would choke on the table-based design. Robots may find this one better too (remember: Google is your most important blind visitor). http://www.sitepoint.com/article/tables-vs-css/2/ This is the reason I'm asking about tableless templates because all I want to do is customize my WHMCS to match my website, which should just be editing css and maybe a few minor changes to the .tpl files. However that's not the case. My intention wasn't to start an argument, but simply to ask if any tableless templates existed that I could use to base my template off of. I guess not seeing as how you all love tables so much. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herpherp Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 What about standards? Exactly what about em The page you supplied is an argument on css vs tables... Again tables are utilized within css so I am not sure this is even a valid argument. On a serious note, I'm not sure if there is anyone that has a custom template available for public use that does not utilize tables, there really aren't a lot of custom templates available at all as most people are designing for themselves... There are however quite a few people that do integrations and template customizations that you may want to ask if they can set 1 up that does not utilize tables, or customize it on your own. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlinpa1969 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 tables have their place......... Holding tabular data... such as a list of products other than that tables are NOT needed, and once you get the hang of divs and css its actually easier.... and alot more flexible..... that said a tableless whmcs would be nice but hardly worth the headaches make your site tableless and just grab the smartycode that you need to get the orders done 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herdboy Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Hi The page you supplied is an argument on css vs tables... Again tables are utilized within css so I am not sure this is even a valid argument. Yes I agree but the way that tables are applied in CSS, is what counts. I agree with nickrober that there should be a move in this direction as it offers more flexibility when it comes to design and application and is more accessibly from a standards point and a user point of view. Lets think long term people, the "engine" of our beloved WHMCS is tuned to the point where there is no competition for it, yet the "bodywork" is in need of attention. Best to all:) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlinpa1969 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Lets think long term people, the "engine" of our beloved WHMCS is tuned to the point where there is no competition for it, yet the "bodywork" is in need of attention. I wouldnt go there just yet but close, things like flexible billing terms, and ip delagation are 2 areas that still need a little wrench time.... but enough about that, its for another post 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goddess_dix Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 without getting into the whole philosophy thing, i would really like to see WHMCS templates move more towards current coding standards, including decreasing the use of tables where possible and totally abandoning depreciated stuff like font tags. it would simply make my life a lot easier to control this stuff through css rather than have it hard-coded in the templates, and encourage people (or at least me) to do more customizing, as it would be less likely i'll have to do it all over again every update. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickrober Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 The page you supplied is an argument on css vs tables... Again tables are utilized within css so I am not sure this is even a valid argument. You are looking at this too literally and just trying everything you can to prove someone wrong. There is no reason why WHMCS wouldn't benefit from being built with divs than tables. I've been in web design for a while, and I used to use tables for everything. But changing over to divs was not hard, and in the long run it was a lot easier to create more websites. There is no need to have a table inside a table inside a table just to place one item there then close the table then close the table then close the table. See, just doesn't make much sense. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAJI26 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Div's are much easier to use that table and I agree with nickrober. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andymit Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 hi there, was reading with interest. We also want to change the layout slightly and are having problems doing so. We need to know where we can change the css. We have tried but it does not seem to change when we look at it live. So what are the paths for the css in WHMCS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlinpa1969 Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 make sure to dump the templates.c files 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sequencehost Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 It's crazy how some people still swear by tables, sure they still have there uses for some forms of layout but css + divs is the way to go for layout. I think tables are very useful for easily displaying forms. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditto Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 HTML tables should never be used to anything else then displaying tabular data. I have myself taken the time to remove all of the HTML tables (except for the ones displaying tabular data) from my TPL files. And also taken care of fixing up the rest of the HTML so that it is valid according to the XHTML 1.0 Strict recommendation ... But HTML 4.01 Strict would be just as good (looking forward to HTML5). Please read this: http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/ (Why tables for layout is stupid). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bear Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 (Why tables for layout is stupid). Speaking of stupid, I stopped trying to read the "article" after the 14th page of two sentences (that repeated quite a few points over and over) with giant goofy images on the left that appeared to be the focus of each page. Utterly pointless and difficult to read that way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sequencehost Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 HTML tables should never be used to anything else then displaying tabular data. I have myself taken the time to remove all of the HTML tables (except for the ones displaying tabular data) from my TPL files. And also taken care of fixing up the rest of the HTML so that it is valid according to the XHTML 1.0 Strict recommendation ... But HTML 4.01 Strict would be just as good (looking forward to HTML5). Please read this: http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/ (Why tables for layout is stupid). Agreed! Im going to remove all tables aswel just no idea where to start lol 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tech.girl Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 (edited) A css layout (without tables where they arent needed) is so needed that I dont see why it wasnt done yet. Edited August 12, 2009 by tech.girl 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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