dansgalaxy Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 I enquired about getting a dev license to test out the new beta etc, but was told "As you buy your license from a reseller rather than directly you are not entitled to a free development use license." How is that fair? WHMCS was sold to me as i get full support from WHMCS and everything, so why should it matter? They still getting money from the reseller. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliez Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 I agree with you on this... the money flows down to the main seller, that is why they sell to resellers... is like if Ford would say, you bought your car from a dealer in a far away country, so you are not entitled to recall fixes or other stuff... there is so much talk about customers... but when it comes down to it, the companies don't care... I will get the money and hopefully somebody will help you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansgalaxy Posted August 23, 2008 Author Share Posted August 23, 2008 Glad i am not alone, It is just this kind of thing, even tho its a small thing, really does annouy me, especially when they have such a good thing going here. It just really annouys me why provide support and not a simple dev license which everyone else gets, if i get the support i want the rest Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianr Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 Looking at it from WHMCS' perspective. They get anywhere from 15%-55% (or higher) less revenue from reseller licenses, yet give the same support. Call it a small perk of a direct license. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9DollarDomains Posted August 24, 2008 Share Posted August 24, 2008 is like if Ford would say, you bought your car from a dealer in a far away country, so you are not entitled to recall fixes or other stuff...Actually, that is exactly what Ford says. I live in Canada, and if I drive to the USA and buy an F150 there, Ford Canada will not pay the warranty work on it. The same with Toshiba and many other companies if I import their products directly. It's fairly common for the warranty to be specific to the country where it's purchased - the idea is that Ford Canada or Toshiba Canada didn't make any loot from the sale, and won't pay for the Warranty work for it. That being said, Honda Canada will warranty a Honda purchased anywhere in the world and imported privately - so it certainly is a company specific policy. That is a big selling point plus for Honda, individuals & dealers can buy/sell/trade whatever a Honda without concern. However, FWIW, when the Canadian Dollar went from .70c US$ to 1.05 US$ earlier this year, it made it pretty tough for Canadian Honda dealers to sell their $35,000 CAD$ cars when they were still $24,000 USD$. Ford dealerships didn't encounter quite as much of the same issue, since there would be no Canadian Warranty on those Ford imports. So, not really the WHMCS issue I know, but sort of. The reseller has made some of the money, and WHMCS has provided a discount to them, so the concern is sort of the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorro67 Posted August 24, 2008 Share Posted August 24, 2008 Actually i disagree with Brian's logic regarding pricing.(sorry Brian). The concept of selling through a channel is to sacrifice some margin ($ revenue) at the expense of volume (no. of units sold) in order to reach a greater number of consumers, and therefore spread your fixed costs over a greater number of units. It is also used as a strategy to increase your exposure, net no. of referrals, and improve other sales KPIs and help you get to your 'critical mass' and 'breakeven' points faster. (this is the short response). The expectation though is that the channel handles sales, but the manufacturer must still be responsible for honouring warranties and support (at least in a physical product). Check the warranty card for any kettle, toaster or TV. It ussually says "return to manufaccturer for service or support". So if you make it (at least in Australia), unless it says so in the terms and conditions of purchase (which you must make the customer aware of) you are jointly & severally responsible, among other things, for that product's fitness for purpose and merchanable quality. In fact in many countries, such as Australia, manufacturer responsibility is mandated by consumer (incl. trade) legislation. And feel free to disagree me; just letting you know that I've got 25 years of marketing experience to back my rationalle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky Posted August 24, 2008 Share Posted August 24, 2008 Zorro67: I agree with what you said totally. In Dan's case WHMCS have lived up to that 100% they have been supporting him with the product he has purchased from a reseller. (remembering its the licence that is really the product) However, technically a dev licence key is really a completely different product. I am sure that he would be able to buy another licence. Dan: maybe you could ask the reseller that you purchased your original licence to try and get a dev licence for you. I will bet that they won't give you one. (maybe sell it to you) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorro67 Posted August 24, 2008 Share Posted August 24, 2008 Steve, thanks for the clarification. I suppose its then a case of under what terms a dev licence is offered. Comes back to the old adage of 'read the fine print' and know what you are buying. That said, perhaps there is a case for dev licences for all licenced users. Access to a dev licence to a greater audience has the potential of increases in the volume of USABLE (note the capitals) contributions, from a more diverse range of users, which would contribute to the overall improvement in architecture, functionality, features, and ultimately product appeal of WHMCS. Its always appropriate to review your terms to see if they suit both your own business & your clients. They may not need to change, but its always worth a look. not being a coder, nor having the need or desire to review either the terms or relevance of a dev licence, means the question is best left to others. most importantly; don't let this thread become a wail, but a place for informed and intelligent thought. Matt, my invoice for that one-off business consultation is in the mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansgalaxy Posted August 24, 2008 Author Share Posted August 24, 2008 Thanks for your input all.... I understand that whmcs makes a little less because its sold via a reseller, but as Zorro67 said: The concept of selling through a channel is to sacrifice some margin ($ revenue) at the expense of volume (no. of units sold) in order to reach a greater number of consumers, and therefore spread your fixed costs over a greater number of units. It is also used as a strategy to increase your exposure, net no. of referrals, and improve other sales KPIs and help you get to your 'critical mass' and 'breakeven' points faster. (this is the short response). The expectation though is that the channel handles sales, but the manufacturer must still be responsible for honouring warranties and support (at least in a physical product). Check the warranty card for any kettle, toaster or TV. It ussually says "return to manufaccturer for service or support". It is sold in this way to get more clients, and get the large user base. I just think that dev licenses are an important thing, you are excluding clients which get their license from a reseller. Why can the dev license not be a default part of WHMCS, ie you can easily set up two locations on dev one live under the one key, would make sense to me. And the dev set up can easily be done so if its dev, have it limited to say 1-5 IP's so for instance only admins or devs for the company can access it so it isnt public... etc.. I am paying about $13/month which because my business is small is litterally about half my profit... at the moment im not breaking even, i am running my site more as a hobby than business but so i cant afford to get another license just to have a few hours having a look at the new beta release.. Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
othellotech Posted August 24, 2008 Share Posted August 24, 2008 I am paying about $13/month which because my business is small is litterally about half my profit... at the moment im not breaking even, i am running my site more as a hobby than business but so i cant afford to get another license just to have a few hours having a look at the new beta release.. if you're doing so little business, who is going to notice if you put it up as the "live" system for a couple of hours ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uberhost Posted August 24, 2008 Share Posted August 24, 2008 Fair or unfair in our minds, this is WHMCS world and we just live in it. If you obtain WHMCS through a reseller, then you don't get to test the "edge" releases, simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansgalaxy Posted August 24, 2008 Author Share Posted August 24, 2008 I could get away with it unnoticed if i was lucky yes, but it would mean having to export my database, check i have a local backup of files, upload new files, install, and then when i am finished, i will have to delete the database reinsert everything, reupload current files... get the picture... very messy. And personally, I dont see why i shouldnt be entitled to it like users who purchase directly from WHMCS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansgalaxy Posted August 24, 2008 Author Share Posted August 24, 2008 Fair or unfair in our minds, this is WHMCS world and we just live in it. If you obtain WHMCS through a reseller, then you don't get to test the "edge" releases, simple as that. Sorry, but while i see your view point, personally i think it is wrong. Anything like this is only successful because of its users, if none of "us" were here or using WHMCS it simply wouldn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianr Posted August 24, 2008 Share Posted August 24, 2008 And personally, I dont see why i shouldnt be entitled to it like users who purchase directly from WHMCS. Just a quick question: Where does it say we're entitled to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHMCS CEO Matt Posted August 24, 2008 WHMCS CEO Share Posted August 24, 2008 So you think it is fair that a user who purchases directly and has therefore paid more than you, gets no extra benefits for that extra payment? But it's not fair that you who has paid less doesn't get them? There are other benefits of buying directly aswell such as not having to go to the reseller for billing/licensing issues and having the option of applying to be a reseller yourself for your hosting clients. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ur Posted August 24, 2008 Share Posted August 24, 2008 I completely agree with the way Matt is doing this. Nothing wrong with it at all. I don't quite get all the channel marketing and sales arguments or how opening it up to virtually anyone will help further development and testing. .. let alone have self admitted "hobbyist webhosts" give feedback (no offense Dan). Hey, for all I know, Dan is a guy that knows everything about the hosting business, but he still remains a hobbyist. Oh and that Sunbeam Toaster, they send it first to Underwriters Laboratory, not some housewife with 4 kids that use it to toast a whole loaf every day. Don't expect Ford Motor Company to ask you to test their prototypes either. Maybe all these companies do product test marketing and focus groups, but those are all carefully selected. Get my drift? Furthermore, product warranties, servability, fitness and quality just don't apply to products in development. Hence the terms prototypes or alpha, and beta, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uberhost Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Sorry, but while i see your view point, personally i think it is wrong. I appreciate your kind reply, and though we disagree, at least we can debate in a civil manner. Anything like this is only successful because of its users, if none of "us" were here or using WHMCS it simply wouldn't exist. True, and this is a very good point, but it begs the question "why are we all here" then? My short list follows: Ease of use Large WHMCS feature set Stability of the software Rapid deployment of user-suggested enhancements Direct access to the developers Price point While I do agree with you that WHMCS wouldn't exist without the loyal support of the user base, I don't feel like the majority of those who go through a reseller are ready to flee just because they have fewer perks than those who go direct. As a WHMCS reseller, sure, I would like to offer clients all the perks that they could get from dealing directly with WHMCS. OTOH, I have the price advantage. It's a balanced relationship. It really comes down to price. For a few extra bucks a month, you get direct access to WHMCS for billing and licensing. With this direct access you can request a localhost or development license and then put up a beta release with which to experiment. I think that's a pretty good deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansgalaxy Posted August 25, 2008 Author Share Posted August 25, 2008 I understand that they get these "perks" because they registered and WHMCS gets more money, but i think my main point is it shouldnt be an issue of how much you paid for the product or where it is from. Personally, i think you make the decision to reseller your license, and are there-fore forfitting that little bit extra in exchange for users, so how much they get be it core or perks shouldnt be affected. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uberhost Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 I understand that they get these "perks" because they registered and WHMCS gets more money, but i think my main point is it shouldnt be an issue of how much you paid for the product or where it is from. Okay... Man, I think all cars should come fully-equipped no matter the price, but I guess the automobile manufacturers would disagree. Personally, i think you make the decision to reseller your license, and are there-fore forfitting that little bit extra in exchange for users, so how much they get be it core or perks shouldnt be affected. Sorry, I don't understand that statement. Please explain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorro67 Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Good to see that there are different schools of thought on this. However, this might have gone just about as far as it can go. Matt, one of things that i struggled to find (correct me if i'm wrong) was some detail about the types of licencing, and what you get for what licence. With the benefit of hindsight, can you consider detailing the benefits of each licence type on your sales/homepage, in a way that give people the ability to make an infromed choice. Also if someone leases a licence from a reseller, is there any information that details what an upgrade process might be? Finally, its been a while since i did a new install, so my memory is vague, but perhaps there could be a link/information set that shows up during the install as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uberhost Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 With the benefit of hindsight, can you consider detailing the benefits of each licence type on your sales/homepage, in a way that give people the ability to make an infromed choice. I like that idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansgalaxy Posted August 26, 2008 Author Share Posted August 26, 2008 I like that idea. Me too. What i mean is, the developers (Matt & Joe) have obviously made the choice to reseller their license to gain more users, and in my opinion they have made the choice to make less money and i just don't see why the Dev license should be for-fitted for the user.. Just my thoughts... And I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks its odd its done this way, even my reseller of it commented it was unusual to penalise users who purchase their license from somewhere else. But as you said this isn't going to go much further... This really should be documented better, and i think WHMCS needs to require resellers make it clear exactly what is on offer... personally i was under the impression i was getting exactly the same deal as going direct just a few pence cheaper and another person i can go to when i need support. Hence why i was a little disgruntled when i was told this was not the case. Apologies if i seemed a little rude... was just bit peeved... Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Forum Member WHMCS Joe Posted August 26, 2008 Retired Forum Member Share Posted August 26, 2008 Hi We appreciate feedback from our users and we'll be revising the reseller agreement to ensure WHMCS resellers are aware that they need to inform their clients about what the limitations are so that an informative decision can be made. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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