New 3.4 paypal question...

[arteryplanet]

i see in the new version the paypal is allowing clients to have subscriptions...but wondering what happen in this scenario....

 

the client order a service and pay with paypal subscription on 1st of the month, then for some reason the next month or period the subscription fail (no funds, etc.). Then the client pay the overdue susbscription on 10th of the month.

 

This means whmcs and also paypal will handle the future payments on 10th of the month? or the due date (1st) is passed to paypal and whmcs?

 

Thanx!

[arteryplanet]

Anyone?

[jacksonhole]

page 32 here might answer your question:

http://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/xcl/rec/subscr-manual-outside

[arteryplanet]

well...i know how paypal works, my question was about how WHMCS handle the specified scenario.

 

Thanx!

[jacksonhole]

If the subscription was not canceled due to too many failed attempts, Paypal will keep the same (i.e. original) payment schedule; and I suspect WHMCS will just treat it like any other payment received late (with any applicable late fees).. Subs cant be changed, afaik, just canceled (explained elsewhere). There are only two ways Paypal adjusts subscription payment dates: if the due date doesn't exist (i.e. monthly on the 31st will end up being the 1st the first time a short month is encountered and then it will stay the 1st from then on); and the other doesn't apply to monthly (or longer payment intervals) subs because reattempts will be far enough away from the next due date.

 

And why would either Paypal or WHMCS (or anyone, for that matter) push a due date further out because a past recurring payment was late? (wish the cable company would do that).

 

Now if the sub was canceled and then the customer starts another one. the date the sub starts is the monthly date it'll be due. That part could get messy in WHMCS unless it can do a prorate and tack on extra to the first payment.

[arteryplanet]

Now if the sub was canceled and then the customer starts another one. the date the sub starts is the monthly date it'll be due. That part could get messy in WHMCS unless it can do a prorate and tack on extra to the first payment.

 

Thats the part that im talking

 

lets say paypal failed many times and the subs was canceled.

Then the next day the client login in whmcs and the paypal button is there in the invoice, he just click and initiate another subscription.

 

I guess is when all the dates could get messy as the new paypal susbs date and the due date on whmcs will not match.

 

Will be great to automatically do not display the paypal button on a overdue invoice if the paypal susbs was canceled by paypal, but at this point i guess whmcs couldnt know when this happen...or im wrong?

 

Thanx!

[mrprez]

I just had this happen. Customer's bill was due on 10/1. On 10/7 she signs up for a PP subscription. Now, her payment is going to be made on the 8th of the month. Not good.

 

WHMCS needs to look at the due date and setup a paid trial period for the # of days until the next payment is due so that the paid date does not change. She just got a free week of hosting...:-(

[Matt]

She didn't get a free week. WHMCS works the same as MB and others with subscriptions on invoices - it's created at the time the user clicks the button, if that's late, it's late each month. Likewise with early - the chances of the client paying on the due date is unlikely. It's no different in 3.4 from the invoice than how it was in previous versions.

 

Matt

[mrprez]

How do you figure. If she was paying all along on the first and now she pays on the 8th, she got a free week. The payment date should not change. It is rather easy to code up the subscription button to do this. I did it with AWBS and if I can do it anyone can!! I can try to dig it up if you want to see it. Works both ways, early or late.

[Matt]

How do you figure

The user is only paying 8 days late. Their due date has not been changed so therefore nothing has been provided free of charge.

 

Matt

[arteryplanet]

Well no.... if the subscription was canceled and he re initiated another subscription 8 days after the due date, paypal susbs will be charged every month 8 days later the original due date and most probably whmcs will continue showing the original due date that do not match with the new subs date.

[arteryplanet]

to be more clear......

 

1- client signup for monthly services on 1st of the month and create a pp subs.

 

This means every 1st paypal will charge him.

 

2- client cancel the subs before the next period (before next month 1st).

 

3- his account is due on 1st of next month.

 

4- he dont pay next month so he have an overdue invoice on the 2nd of the next month.

 

5- he keeps not paying it until the 10th of the month when he come and click in the paypal subs payment in the overdue invoice.

 

6- paypal start another subs on 10th of the month, so from now the days that he will be charged is the 10th and not the 1st.

 

7- he got 9 days for free services.

 

also theere are some things that could conflict with this....

 

a- as the next payment will be completed on 10th whmcs will not be aware of this, so most probably on 2nd of the month the invoice will be marked as overdue, if late fees apply he will be charged with late fees as the paypal payment will not be processed until 10th.

 

b- if you have the account suspension enabled, lets say 7 days after the due date, the account will be suspended every month because the payment will not be completed until the 10th.

 

hope the clarify the situation.

 

Thanx!

[mrprez]

Exactly. Matt, if I was leasing my license on a monthly basis using a PP subscription and for whatever reason the subscription was canceled (PayPal does it all the time for no reason) and I restarted it 10 days later, I would think that you would look at this a bit different. While it's true that I did get paid for this account, it is a week late and will be forever a week late. To me, the one providing the service a free week to the customer.

 

I hardly think the any of the people I lease servers through would go for that and would cancel my service pretty quickly.

[Matt]

You will be getting paid late, but you won't be providing anything for free. Whether the user pays on the day or 10 days late, they are paying for the period 01/10/07-01/11/07. Their next due date doesn't increase by a month and 10 days so there is nothing free. That is what this post was opened about and that is the answer. And this is nothing new, a customer has always been able to signup for a monthly subscription 10/15/20/etc... days after the due date and always be late paying for the account from them on.

 

Your "suggested" solution is fine for monthly payments but on longer terms it does not work because of the PayPal limit on trial period values.

 

Matt

[arteryplanet]

ok Matt....but are you seeing the problem this cause with late payment fees and also account suspension?

[brianr]

Matt,

 

I know that's how it works 'now' -- but that also allows the customer to cancel the PP sub after the 1st (in arteryplanet's example) but before the sub payment is made. In essence the customer could stiff arteryplanet for the 'x' days between due date and the PP sub cancellation date.

 

I also doubt that PP would be much help in that situation.

 

Perhaps the right thing to do here is form the PP sub using this logic:

 

1) If the PP sub is going to be created on/before the due date of the current/next payment....

1a) and the number of days between the sub date and the due date is <= the pp trial limit then create the sub with the trial days = due date - today's date

1b) OR if the amount of time between the sub date (today) and the due date is > the trial max, don't allow the sub to be created, and present an error

 

2) If the PP sub is going to be created when a payment is already due

2a) and the number of days between the sub date and the NEXT due date is <= the pp trial limit then create the sub with the trial days = next due date - today's date

2b) OR if the amount of time between the sub date and the next due date is > the trial max, don't allow the sub to be created, warn the customer and process a one-time PP payment.

[arteryplanet]

or the other logic could be.....

 

Create the paypal payment on the fly.....at the moment the client click in the paypal button, whmcs check if the due date match with the current date, if it match forward to paypal as usual.

 

If the current date is x days late from the due date, then create a paypal payment with $x (calculated the prorated days between the due date and the current date) + subs for the usual service period and change the next due date on whmcs to the current day also make the necessary modification in the current invoice to show the new values.

 

What do you think?

[mrprez]

OK, then you should at least fix the issue with the due date. Now, I have to go back and check every subscription setup to make sure the due date is correct so that the account doesn't get late notices and/or suspensions. This takes away from projected pool time!

[jacksonhole]

Your "suggested" solution is fine for monthly payments but on longer terms it does not work because of the PayPal limit on trial period values.

Matt

 

Then you force them to use a PayPal invoice to pay the late bill instead; and instruct them to "pay on time, next time" if they wish to use a PayPal subscription.

 

That, or you need to monkey around with billing due dates and charge extra via a separate PayPal invoice for the "lost" time (that is, the time between the last billing date and the date of the new subscription starting), or use a trial period of ONE DAY (to hopefully reduce the number of folks attempting to cancel during the "non trial" trial period) at whatever that extra cost was; then adjust the actual due dates in WHMCS to coincide with the new subscription payment date.

[CarlB]

I may have misunderstood this thread, but wanted to contribute...

 

Your issue is with people creating a subscription x days after the due date, and this payment then being taken on this date.. i can see where your coming from with the "they get from due date to X free everymonth" but whats to stop me signing up with manual invoices, or worldpay, and still paying X days after the duedate each month?

 

The only real difference is the automation, if it truly bothers you that clients get to pay X number of days after the due date and everything be hunkydory - just suspend the day after the invoice is due and charge a late fee, that way they would definatly pay on time.

[arteryplanet]

but whats to stop me signing up with manual invoices, or worldpay, and still paying X days after the duedate each month?

 

If you do that next due date will be the same as the signup date, with paypal this do not happen, once they have the subs canceled and then initiated another 5 days later the new paypal due date will be 5 days late than the signup date.

[CarlB]

Do you mean that the WHMCS due date moves to the day they make the subscription, or just the paypal due date?

[arteryplanet]

the paypal due date will change if they subscribe again lets say 5 days later and whmcs will dont know about it, so in WHMCS the due date will be the same as usual and out of sync from the new paypal subs due date....thats not the main problem, the problems start if you charge late fees or suspend the account because the client will have an active subscription 5 days late and whmcs will thing the payment is not complete, so depending your configuration you could start charging late fees and also suspend the accounts to the clients with active paypal subscriptions.

 

Not sure if im clear...if no let me know and ill put an example.

 

Thanx!

[mrprez]

PayPal. The date in WHMCS doesn't change. Now, I have to go in and check each and every new PayPal subscription to make sure the date is correct.

[CarlB]

I understand a bit more now, thanks

 

I still think that the customer has to be aware they are paying late (reminders perhaps), it would have to occur to them that later charges would be applied, and that they should make it a priority to make the subscription on the correct date the following month.

 

I think that principle exists with most monthly paid services - for example, my credit card bill is due on 1st of the month, if i set up a direct debit to go out on the 5th of each month, its my fault if i get charged late fees or have my card suspended.

 

Any customer that complained at you about being charged late fees despite a subscription could easily be put to rest by you explaining that the subscription needs to be set up on the right date, maybe even stick in a knowledge base?

 

I really do see where your coming from, but its ultimatey the customers responsibility to make sure payments are made on time - if they setup a subscription past the due date i think they should be made to rectify it, not the responisbility of the company to adjust there system to make allowances for bad debters.

 

I do fully understand your point of view, i guess it just comes down to preference on your billing proces