Abandoned modules

[niels]

While searching the forums for modules I repeatedly run into modules that were once promising but died a silent death after a while.

 

I don't blame people for abandoning modules - they typically don't bring in a lot of money - but I do think it's a waste to see things die like that. Especially if the code was never published, meaning others can't continue development. Not to mention the frustration if you paid for it.

 

I was wondering if some of the hardcore WHMCS forum users couldn't set up some kind of trusted group for modules. The idea would be that:

- A developer (commercial of not) would promise/pledge/contract to release the code to the trusted group if he can't meet a certain update/development cycle.

- In return the trusted group would endorse the module, providing a guarantee to potential users/buyers.

 

The advantage should be pretty clear: the buyer/user gets a guaranteed continuity (even if its just a copy of the code) and the seller/creator makes more sales as a result of the endorsement.

 

This is just the basic idea. The group could simply be 2 random forums posters we all trust, or a bigger group with more formal procedures and potentially some kind of funding or affiliation with WHMCS.

 

Looking forward to your comments.

[ditto]

The best would be if there was no encrypted modules at all -- that would solve all problems with abandoning modules.

 

I can't use any of the encrypted modules. Of course I will pay for any module that I use, but I will never use a module from a third party that is encrypted. Never.

[merlinpa1969]

Ditto, food for thought...

WHMCS is encrypted, this is to make sure that they have their intellectual property protected and can continue to make Money from it.

Why should third party module vendors be any different?

The are supposed to hand over their un-encrypted files and then what, have their ability to profit from it stripped?

 

Dont get me wrong, I Love Open Source.... but from a financial standpoint OS is not prectical.

[bear]

That's mainly what stops me from using them as well: accountability and "what's in it?". I trust WHMCS being encrypted, but not third party add ons.

 

How could you trust that the 'guardians' of the modules would also remain loyal and keep up the scripting, for no compensation? As with anything, it takes time to develop and maintain, and eventually those that work on it want something for that time and effort, so they either start charging or stop developing. Same boat, different day.

 

- so speaks the cynic that's seen it over and over...

[mcraedesigns]

WHMCS = Solid, reliable, long standing, proven, solid company.

3rd Party developers = Have a bad wrap for not continuing projects.

 

At any rate, if they would start with unencoded it would be better. Why? Because they would make the same amount of initial purchases. And if they disappear, who cares? Which happens 90% of the time, so those 90% lose nothing.

 

They are actually likely to make more on initial purchases due to it being unencoded. So they can happily disappear and there is no problem.

[thehost5968]

This is right but look at it the other way I have seen 2 or 3 free open code mod on this forum (good thing) but then 2 or 3 weeks later a big trusted member does a very very small change but then charges for it OK it may only be 5.00 or 10.00 but why and this is why so many mods are encrypted now if you all said you would also back up the 3rd Party developer(s) by not ripping them off, by doing this then you would see more open coded mod?

Also what about a mod that is so good that even WHMCS would like to use it (developed for free)?

[EasyWHMCS]

I fully understand both points of view the encoding and the unencoded,

mod dev encode their work because they don’t want it copied and resold on or passed on for free

End users want it unencoded because they don’t fully know what’s in it

 

So there needs to be a solution half way if this big "ho ha" is going to ever stop between mod devs and end users, Yes granted the majority of mods have died,

 

I would suggest sending them to Matt and he encodes them, but that’s causing him more work and he doesn’t want to do that I can well imagine, And also what’s to stop a mod developer from changing the file that’s put on the downloads on their site?

 

I don’t think there is a half way line to meet, because both points of view are valid,

 

However I do believe this group of trusted members to continue the development would be a good idea, And would continue the modules being developed8)

[niels]

bear, I think if the conditions are made clear in advance there are advantages to having a group of guardians:

 

- The trusted group doesn't have to accept and endorse every random module that is sent to them. They would accept modules that meet a certain quality standard and that they know are in actual demand.

 

- The type of guarantee would be announced at the moment of endorsement and be very clear, e.g. "unencoded source release", "transfer to company X", "continued by volunteers X, Y and Z", etc.

 

Knowing what kind of "guarantee" I get helps me, it coming from a group with an established reputation more so.

[thehost5968]

- The trusted group Would need to offer this service for free else all you would see is higher price.

 

But I think you will find it hard to get unencoded source release only as even the trusted 3rd Party developer(s) encode there work. The best you could get is a open version and enclosed version but the prices would be like e.g. $15.00 for encoded source release and $150 for unencoded source release due to as soon as a developer releases a unencoded source release mod what stops it from being posted for all in this forum or more likely copying it and selling.

 

So this trusted group (also forum) Would need to deal with this when the developer reports this to the trusted group or forum and action taken.

 

And that raises anther point what action would / could be taken?

[bear]

I've seen cooperative setups like this that briefly work, then someone decides to start selling the item just to make up for the time they've spent on it, or because "business is down and they need the money". I've seen it with login shares, knowledgebases, addons, mods and templates. It's happened right here on this forum, where someone created a mod that was openly available, then another member came along, ripped most (if not all) of the functions and started offering "his" version.

 

Maybe this one will be different, but I find it hard to believe.

 

As with anything that is essentially open sourced, there are risks. There will always be those that you feel you can trust with something like this, based on past behavior on a web forum...but do you really know that person? I can't tell you how many times I've found out that the provider of "super duper ABC webhosting" is actually some 10-12 year old kid (not an exaggeration, I'd run into an 8 year old once!) using an illegal Paypal account to conduct business after school and on weekends. You'd be amazed at how many there are out there, and running businesses you have probably heard of. Web hosting forums are full of "where did my host go?" threads each day...

[thehost5968]

There is one other way to deal with this and that is having a Community code / snippets bank?

[mcraedesigns]

It would at least be nice if they posted the code up if they plan to disappear. As a show of good character. With the exception of them getting struck by a bus or extreme illness to where they cant do that or continue coding.

[bear]

It would at least be nice if they posted the code up if they plan to disappear.

Who plans to disappear?

I've had people who's sites I designed years ago ask for support with a script that was developed just for them, but wasn't forward compatible with newer PHP and mySQL versions. For free. Forever. Got mad when I told them I'd have to charge because it's a major rewrite of a script that worked properly for years.

 

I'd guess most of these devs simply moved on to other things or lost interest. I've seen this over and over where someone made something for themselves, decided to release it publicly and then realized they'd be supporting it forever...gets overwhelming.

[SiteSeal-Developer]

You see like i descovered (Without starting a new rant) when i offered a free opensource service (64Bit WHMCS) most moaned as they didnt think that things could actually be free. So i started to develope the project to show people i was a genuine/trusted developer offering things for free. And loosely baised on the negitive feedback recived from this forum people started to see it as bad place to go. So people ether stopped coming or people donated and others thought that was wrong also. But at the end of the day servers cost money to run as we all know. So now i dont offer my services for free and i dont have any of my mods opensource because people will steal them change things (Not always for the best) and then claim my works as thier own (Checky Buggers!) so to be honist each to thier own views and all that but it swings both ways when you come to a subject such as this.

 

Sometimes i find this forum as most our these days without putting all the blame on WHMCS, Very hostle places to be indeed. I speak to all no matter what the medium is how i expect to be spoke to in the street. But not all do what i do and you can if your not carful get stuck into a rant witch you didnt really want and carnt stop because a select few wont let it go. A post like this one has been known to start rants off, but im taking a risk to try and put what i feel is a valid pont of view you know.

 

Now while i am a big supporter of free speak to all, I do think that places such as WHMCS community forums should be a little more harsh with thier "Bitching Policy/Rules" shell we call it since WHMCS dont have a policy name for it. I think that the mod team behind this forum should be made more aware of this issue and try and work with each other and the communtiy to try and crack down on the some of the more personal remarks and deformentory comments made towards, people (In some cases, but rare), Products, Mods and services. And when this is sorted out this place may be more community driven and then in return people will be more proactive and developers will developer more and more inportantly keep thier products and services up to date.

Edited December 22, 2009 by SiteSeal-Developer

[bear]

I think that the mod team behind this forum should be made more aware of this issue and try and work with each other and the communtiy to try and crack down on the some of the more personal remarks and deformentory comments made towards, people (In some cases, but rare), Products, Mods and services.

If you or anyone else feels that something requires moderating staff's attention because of rudeness or fighting, feel free to hit that report button () and tell us. If it's a valid concern, we will take action.

 

It's my understanding that the mods and addons section was set up to allow those that wish to contribute or sell WHMCS related ancillary products could do so. It is also my understanding that it's not required that it remain, so play nice. If it gets to be too problematic, it probably won't last, and everyone loses out.

[SiteSeal-Developer]

Well bear thanks for making WHMCS look good but where were you in my thread when i had more than 1 of your "So call trusted posted" yayling abuse at me some time ago before i stepped back. Not because i wanted to but simply doing your job for you it was a modiration tactic more than wanted to step away. So i think showing me something i already know is in place is a little nieave of you dont you think? I dont mean that to sound rude or anything and its not an attack but i dont mince my words no point if your going to make a point do it right, correct?

 

Anyhow my point has been made i and i do hope that this issue is looked into its not just me Bear its wide spread right across your forums in all directions and i as a user can not possibly report every post and person(s) doing this and anyway its not my job unless you want to make me mod witch i very much dout so this one falls upon you and Matt im afraid buddy.

 

One of the main reasons why mods die off is beacuse of the negitive feedback developers get from this forum and most take a run for it as they carnt be bothered to fight for thier right to develope witch is not right. Well at least i dont think it is. Well really bear the ball is in your court 3rd party developers like me have a major role to play within the continued productivity of WHMCS as some of the mods out today are very good and are a vast improvement on the software and without us (Meaning developers) you would have no customers really, Witch means in the end you guys loose out on custom. So it should be one of your gauls to make sure developers are looked after so to speak as they are somewhat an asset to the company you run or matt runs who ever, But you get my drift.

 

Good luck with it as i think you will need it with some of the users on here.

Edited December 22, 2009 by SiteSeal-Developer

[bear]

where were you in my thread when i had more than 1 of your "So call trusted posted" yayling abuse at me some time ago before i stepped back.

Once again I call your attention to that report button/flag. Where are your reports about the issue? It simply isn't possible for me/Matt/mods to read every post of every thread and determine what you personally find abusive, so a report would call attention to it.

 

as a user can not possibly report every post and person(s) doing this

Similarly, we as mods can't read every post and deal with whatever perceived insults you're talking about. I have a regular business to run, Matt has WHMCS to run and code and so forth. The first step to cleaning up the abuse you say you're seeing is reporting it. To remain silent about specific incidents yet whinge at the moderating staff for not doing anything does nothing to fix the problem.

without us (Meaning developers) you would have no customers really

Though developers are appreciated for their contributions, that statement has no basis in fact. WHMCS is a solid product that does its job very well. Addons and mods enhance it's abilities, but it isn't what makes it work and sell, I'd suggest.

they are somewhat an asset to the company you run or matt runs

I have nothing at all to do with WHMCS except helping on their forum and using the product I paid for.

 

A long time ago, when WHMCS was still using PHPBB as a forum I started reporting spam I saw (hmm, using the report function, imagine that). Eventually I offered to help out with moderating that. Eventually brought on as a moderator, I did what I could, but that forum's tools weren't very good for anything but banning after the fact. Matt decided to go with Vbulletin, and I offered to help migrate over, as I'd done that before. I was made an admin during that time to help facilitate the migration, and after it was done I was left in position so I could continue helping out.

It started with caring enough to click report when I saw a problem post/thread.

Think about it.

[timgws]

Well, I hate to say this, but I offered a module (Virtuozzo) for free. Don't get me wrong - I believe too that module code should be open for everyone, and this is what I have done. But sometimes it just seems like if you are selling something, many more people are interested.

 

Take my module as an example. I started writing the module because the one offered commercially on this forum died within two weeks of it's commercial release. This forum post had more then ten pages talking about it.

 

My release which was free and un-encoded has to date I believe three pages, but only two people talking about the module(!)

 

People really do not respect open source / unencoded scripts. This is a real shame.

[bear]

People really do not respect open source / unencoded scripts. This is a real shame.

People will spend far more time talking about something that failed (especially when it's for pay) than they will about something that works. Happens all the time, and with every forum I'm involved in. A bad script/host/coder will get reams of replies, while a decent one is all but forgotten. It isn't lack of respect, it's nothing to complain about that's at the heart of it.

 

Human nature.

[SiteSeal-Developer]

its the same as if you give someone a free number to call or msn to use witch of caurse is free they will abuse you till the cows come home. But if you give them a 0845, 0870 or 0901 then they will think more before calling and abusing you as it costs them money.

[SiteSeal-Developer]

I have to agree with Bear on this one in that he is right in when he says its "Human nature"

[Apoc]

That's mainly what stops me from using them as well: accountability and "what's in it?". I trust WHMCS being encrypted, but not third party add ons.

 

A good solution for that would be if Matt would certify the 3rd party modules. The developer could then show the unencrypted version to Matt, and provide encrypted versions to end-users.

[EasyWHMCS]

A good solution for that would be if Matt would certify the 3rd party modules. The developer could then show the unencrypted version to Matt, and provide encrypted versions to end-users.

As matt sits there thinking you bas*ards trying to give me more work lol

[thehost5968]

A good solution for that would be if Matt would certify the 3rd party modules. The developer could then show the unencrypted version to Matt, and provide encrypted versions to end-users.

 

 

But the over side is that what if this was done and shortly after the mod / add-on was used by whmcs. as like your saying you can never say never?

 

Also I think you would see 70% of all mod /add-on ether be removed or not getting to the end user due to the type of coding i.e. very like whmcs coding??

 

And at the end of the day would it not just be as good for WHMCS to give out a list of function that are used in whmcs so then every one can see them then the need to hid in the way of encoding the way the add-on maker has going to get there add-on to work as this is what is being hidden more then any think else.

[rmccny]

I've probably read this thread a half dozen times over the past couple weeks before I finally decided to post. I have mixed feelings about encoding add-ons myself, yet I do it. The idea of a code-repository, or way to the WHMCS group to check code before encoding is one that will never work out for a variety of reasons, but the biggest are that it would literally bury the developers with unneeded work, it's against the Ioncube license agreement to provide encoding as a service, it would significantly slow down the release of add-ons, and it could potentially leave the WHMCS group liable for code they have no control over. Having said that, if Matt ever contacted me personally and asked to look over code for any of my add-ons, I would not have a problem doing so.

 

How things have changed... I've been around the forums for a couple years, and while I'm not a very active member, I've seen the place grow from just a couple of 3rd party add-ons to many dozens. I've seen add-ons come and go, some ripped off, and some not get the following they deserve. Open source add-ons may sound good in theory, they are not necessarily the best way to go either, after all where do you turn for support? A developer volunteering his time? What happens when the author gets bored? Unfortunately, I believe that the WHMCS customer base is still too small to support community developed add-ons for all but the most general uses.

 

Developers here must also begin to take their work seriously. Developers must understand that by offering any add-on for sale, they are in fact extending their business model beyond what it currently is. For a serious add-on to be taken seriously, it must be treated seriously by the developer as if it were part of their core business. Add-ons, however must also be treated seriously by the community as well. There has been much discussion on the pricing of various add-ons offered for sale around here. It is not reasonable to expect something that took 20 hours of the authors time to develop to cost $10 and include free updates for life. That business model is one that is guaranteed to end in failure in the long-run.

 

Over the years I've released three add-ons (soon to be 4 ), all of which all started out as something to fill my own requirements yet ones which I felt would have mass appeal. In releasing those, I've tried a variety of methods; "free unencoded", "free encoded with paid unencoded option", and "paid encoded". I can honestly say the "paid encoded" has been the most successful while the "free encoded with paid unencoded option" has been the least. I've always enjoyed giving back which is why up until vBLink 2 was released I offered every single add-on for free in one form or another. Reality however, is that one cannot run a store by giving away the merchandise and expect to stay in business, a fact that I have recently come to terms with.

Edited January 11, 2010 by rmccny