jnet Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 guys Some body signed up with one of my services, paid abut 500 Dollars through paypal We usually make a phone call to the buyer to verify order ( when it is a big ammount ) just in case there is a fraud or stolen credit card So we called them but he was not available . I sent an email to him explaining that we need to call the exact number on his paypal account and unless he picks up the phone himself we can not go ahead with his order he got angry saying he is on travel we cancelled the order and sent him a refund Was I wrong? was that too much to ask? just a simple phone verification to protect ourselves and others? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DedicatedPros Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 You did the right thing, I'm guessing he provided a fake phone number and got angry because his * would not pull through. At least you refunded the payment now before you setup the accounts (or whatever it is you sell) and not in two weeks after the guy has used up your services 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnet Posted August 14, 2009 Author Share Posted August 14, 2009 This is our policy to make phone call verification these days phone calls even oversea calls are not expensive so it does worth doing so what about others what do they do in this case? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herpherp Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 we cancelled the order and sent him a refund Was I wrong? was that too much to ask? just a simple phone verification to protect ourselves and others? Not sure about the refund thing, could be part of the *. Maybe he just made $500? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HostOrca Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Not sure about the refund thing, could be part of the *. Maybe he just made $500? How? If he paid $500 via paypal, and you refund via paypal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnet Posted August 14, 2009 Author Share Posted August 14, 2009 sorry? he paid through paypal I cancelled the invoice and send him the money back by refunding through payapl 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DedicatedPros Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 How? If he paid $500 via paypal, and you refund via paypal. If he paid with a stolen card, he just got 500USD into his paypal account 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openmind Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Or moire to the point, the OP didn't lose $500 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easyhosting Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 If he paid with a stolen card, he just got 500USD into his paypal account well if that the case its between the card holder who had his card stolen and paypal, as he used paypal to filter the payment through so you refunded the payment pack through paypal, before paypal chargebacked you, which whould have effected your paypal account and reputation 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herpherp Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 (edited) sorry? he paid through paypal I cancelled the invoice and send him the money back by refunding through payapl I would suggest keeping a record of all emails and communications... Card Holders don't generally go after merchant account/Payment providers for the money so you never know what is going to happen... The transaction was between you and the customer, it is not impossible that it come back on you, as the card holder could very easily see you as part of the * as the middle man. It is unlikely that you would be held responsible(because it was through paypal) but not impossible. Also what if the customer was doing a bank transfer, and the funds have not cleared yet(and never do)? I am not sure what happens in this case. It takes a fund transfer 5 days with my bank via paypal so If someone refunded me a payment before those 5 days am I able to withdraw that money from paypal and who is held responsible in the end? I haven't personally ran into these issues so I am not sure how paypal handles them, I am sure they have policies in place to protect themselves, which is usually at a cost to the end user... Also there's always other possibilities that I am sure we haven't thought of.... I would personally have waited at least a few days to ensure the payment wasn't chargeback via paypal... I think if the payment is chargedback you could be charged still even though a refund was made? I am not sure on that? I know they can definitely at the least hold funds while they investigate. Edited August 14, 2009 by herpherp 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnet Posted August 14, 2009 Author Share Posted August 14, 2009 well I even sent an email the same day telling paypal what has happened and that they should investigate and keep an eye on that account. I do not see what legally I have done wrong to deserve punishment 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herpherp Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 well I even sent an email the same day telling paypal what has happened and that they should investigate and keep an eye on that account. I do not see what legally I have done wrong to deserve punishment Not saying you did anything wrong, just saying you can never be too careful, as you can be screwed over either by paypal or the customer or any third party who themselves got screwed over. Like I said you probably do not have anything to worry about, I myself am just wondering what I would do if/when the situation arises on our end as well... There are so many scams out there, I would say that it would almost be the equivalent of me cashing a third party check at my bank and then the check is returned, Although I refunded the customer the money(handed him the cash when I cashed the check for him) My bank is still going to charge me the fees and pull the money out of my account... I know it is not the exact same thing but similar? Not quite sure how paypal handles it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HostOrca Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Not saying you did anything wrong, just saying you can never be too careful, as you can be screwed over either by paypal or the customer or any third party who themselves got screwed over. Like I said you probably do not have anything to worry about, I myself am just wondering what I would do if/when the situation arises on our end as well... There are so many scams out there, I would say that it would almost be the equivalent of me cashing a third party check at my bank and then the check is returned, Although I refunded the customer the money(handed him the cash when I cashed the check for him) My bank is still going to charge me the fees and pull the money out of my account... I know it is not the exact same thing but similar? Not quite sure how paypal handles it? You refund the original payment via paypal, so paypal already have a record that the transaction was refunded, so you would not get a chargeback because there is nothing to chargeback. Now if the fraudster transfers the money to a different bank account, spends it etc, that's between paypal and the bank/creditcard company. As long as you refund against the original paypal transaction, and not just send a payment to the original clients paypal email address, then you should be covered. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herpherp Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 As long as you refund against the original paypal transaction, and not just send a payment to the original clients paypal email address, then you should be covered. I think that you can still get a chargeback fee though? Or does paypal eat the chargeback fees from the credit card company? I believe that if you accepted payment(passed fraud procedures) than you could be held responsible, even if you refunded payment. Fraud screening is done prior to accepting payment not after... My apologies if I seem to be being difficult, just trying to gain an understanding of how it works and from what I've read about paypal they do not eat any costs it's always passed onto the seller... I've not personally had any chargebacks or fraud issues yet and am wanting to make sure I prepare for worse case scenario. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DedicatedPros Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 One of the only good things about paypal is that they don't take chargeback fees, and as mentioned above, once you refund the payment you are no longer liable. If they try to take money from you, contact a lawyer as that is theft. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herpherp Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 I've read at paypal and: Copied from paypal site: The following types of information can increase the chances of a chargeback dispute being ruled in favor of the seller: * Proof that the buyer was already refunded. End Copy Though the "buyer" in this case may not be the one who purchased the items and did not receive a refund if the money was spent by a thief They state that basically when a chargeback is made they put a freeze on the funds on the sellers end and that it can take up to 75 days to resolve a disputed chargeback. So best case scenario the dispute is resolved quickly and paypal releases the funds, Worst case scenario paypal claims well the card holder was not refunded so you are responsible, yes the paypal account was refunded but the cardholder was not. Again I can not see paypal eating $500 they are going to attempt to get the money back from the purchaser yes, but if they can't they are going to attempt to take it from you. So refunding only increases your chances it does not guarantee anything... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easyhosting Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 If they try to take money from you, contact a lawyer as that is theft. This will not bother Paypal as they believe that they are above any law, so they believe that they can do what they want. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DedicatedPros Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 This will not bother Paypal as they believe that they are above any law, so they believe that they can do what they want. A criminal lawsuit against them would shut them up don't you think 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DedicatedPros Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 I've read at paypal and:Copied from paypal site: The following types of information can increase the chances of a chargeback dispute being ruled in favor of the seller: * Proof that the buyer was already refunded. End Copy Though the "buyer" in this case may not be the one who purchased the items and did not receive a refund if the money was spent by a thief They state that basically when a chargeback is made they put a freeze on the funds on the sellers end and that it can take up to 75 days to resolve a disputed chargeback. So best case scenario the dispute is resolved quickly and paypal releases the funds, Worst case scenario paypal claims well the card holder was not refunded so you are responsible, yes the paypal account was refunded but the cardholder was not. Again I can not see paypal eating $500 they are going to attempt to get the money back from the purchaser yes, but if they can't they are going to attempt to take it from you. So refunding only increases your chances it does not guarantee anything... No, you are twisting this information to fit your scenario. If the transaction we refunded than you are no longer liable. period. Now if there is a chargeback PayPal won't bother you as their system records this information, and once it sees you processed a refund it will apply the chargeback to the thief's account. I know paypal is bad, but they just could not do that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herpherp Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 No, you are twisting this information to fit your scenario. If the transaction we refunded than you are no longer liable. period. I understand your opinion on that but am trying to gain some facts... Paypal is very clear that they will freeze the funds in your account when a chargeback is filed... If it was a fraudulent order than the credit card company is not going to reverse the chargeback So who pays? Paypal? I highly doubt it The fraudster? Only if paypal is willing to hunt them down and is successful The Seller? They already have the funds frozen so why not? I'm not stating that this is what actually happens but I don't see anywhere that states if you refunded the payment than you can not be held liable for a fraudulent chargeback? I only see that it will help your chances with the credit card company to reverse the chargeback if you have proof you refunded the money to the "credit card holder" which in a case of fraud you would not have credited the card holder but instead credited the paypal account holder. So then it would be an issue between you and paypal not an issue between paypal and the credit card holder as some have claimed... I know it is easy to quickly assume that the "right" thing will happen but when there is fraud involved the "right" thing has already been thrown out the door. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herpherp Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 So if I opened fraudulent paypal accounts... Made purchases from my buddies via paypal with stolen credit cards, they in turn immediately refunded me, I in turn utilize my paypal debit card at the atm and withdraw the cash. My buddy can just claim I refunded him I cancel the fraudulent account and go about my business? And paypal eats the money? Sounds like a good business plan. Speaking of which what is the best proxy providers out there? Is there a limit on how many Forwarding PO boxes I can get at? Joking of course. I should probably be doing something else right now... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylove4life Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 I think Paypal flips a coin I lot of times, I'd never use them for a real buiness... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DedicatedPros Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 So if I opened fraudulent paypal accounts... Made purchases from my buddies via paypal with stolen credit cards, they in turn immediately refunded me, I in turn utilize my paypal debit card at the atm and withdraw the cash. My buddy can just claim I refunded him I cancel the fraudulent account and go about my business? And paypal eats the money? Sounds like a good business plan. Speaking of which what is the best proxy providers out there? Is there a limit on how many Forwarding PO boxes I can get at? Joking of course. I should probably be doing something else right now... They limit your account once you login via a proxy, and than you can't do s**t (they also hold any money you have for 6 months, which is just BS). PayPal wouldn't just eat the money, they would put the chargebacks on your account and you'd have a negative balance.. Also you wouldn't just be able to cancel the account m8, and even if you manage to do so right away, they will still have all your details as you need to be verified to get the PayPal debit card 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGCH Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 If he paid with a stolen card, he just got 500USD into his paypal account When you send a refund to someone via paypal, the refund goes to the source that they used to pay. If they paid via credit card, it was returned to that credit card. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnet Posted August 20, 2009 Author Share Posted August 20, 2009 They limit your account once you login via a proxy, and than you can't do s**t (they also hold any money you have for 6 months, which is just BS). PayPal wouldn't just eat the money, they would put the chargebacks on your account and you'd have a negative balance.. Also you wouldn't just be able to cancel the account m8, and even if you manage to do so right away, they will still have all your details as you need to be verified to get the PayPal debit card Do you think you are making sense? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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