Refund Policies

[Bubka3]

MOD NOTE: This thread has been split from the original thread http://forum.whmcs.com/showthread.php?48217-Refund-Request

 

 

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Your missing the point, the system can easily handle this sort of thing, it knows when to update an account after a payment, why would it not be able to know to alert the admin to a problem with an excess payment?

1. Simply because it is not the admins problem. I didn't put a gun to your head and ask to pay twice.

 

Now, if you follow the same "policy" im glad im not hosted with you, that sort of policy at best wrong, and at worst fraud. but more often a company will "be nice" and do the right thing and refund the over payment or credit it. at customer discretion. and if they dont they are a company i never want dealings with because in my honest and legitimate view, they are not honest and legitimate.

 

2. They are pretty "honest and legitimate". It's called a Terms of Service, and if you don't read them, too bad for you. They CLEARLY explain that it won't happen, they tell you up front, yet most people still complain. Most of them contain something just like this, "Invoices paid in mistake (including double-payments, or extra payment) cannot be refunded, but will be rewarded as account credit". I wouldn't be surprised if someone you do or did business with has this on their TOS.

 

with regards to this.

Why should I be inconvenienced to start refunding because you do not know how to operate a website? I got better things to do.

 

because your running an honest business and not in the habit of ripping off clients?

2-1. No I clearly state it in my Terms of Service. It's not ripping off, or even fraud. Just because you didn't read it and ticked the box doesn't mean it does not apply to you.

Edited June 14, 2012 by WHMCS John
Explain thread split

[disgruntled]

1. Simply because it is not the admins problem. I didn't put a gun to your head and ask to pay twice.

 

2. They are pretty "honest and legitimate". It's called a Terms of Service, and if you don't read them, too bad for you. They CLEARLY explain that it won't happen, they tell you up front, yet most people still complain. Most of them contain something just like this, "Invoices paid in mistake (including double-payments, or extra payment) cannot be refunded, but will be rewarded as account credit". I wouldn't be surprised if someone you do or did business with has this on their TOS.

 

2-1. No I clearly state it in my Terms of Service. It's not ripping off, or even fraud. Just because you didn't read it and ticked the box doesn't mean it does not apply to you.

 

well i really am happy for you to have such a dubious policy, i am glad that i dont operate that way and i never will, its over paid its not mine and thats my policy. my client gets it back unless they advise me otherwise because i am just nice.

 

I wonder the legalities of such things in policies though thats not a debate for this thread its all about payments and refunds.

 

I think i made my point very clear even if the forum mods have decided im in the wrong, it wont change my view or how i will react.

[ivaserver]

well i really am happy for you to have such a dubious policy, i am glad that i dont operate that way and i never will, its over paid its not mine and thats my policy. my client gets it back unless they advise me otherwise because i am just nice.

 

I wonder the legalities of such things in policies though thats not a debate for this thread its all about payments and refunds.

 

I think i made my point very clear even if the forum mods have decided im in the wrong, it wont change my view or how i will react.

 

Hi disgruntled

 

I'm with you on this 100% and would also question the legality of keeping someone’s money that was paid in error.

If a bank makes a mistake and you end up with a credit you should not have had they take the money back, end of!

 

If monies have been paid and it is obviously a mistake then I can not understand wanting to keep it.

 

I’m not having the excuse that it was not my mistake so why should I have to bother with issuing a refund, if a couple of clicks to rectify a customers error is too much trouble for you then I honestly feel for your customers.

[disgruntled]

thank you for the vote on that, at least i know im not on my own thinking the client should be refunded

[disgruntled]

No I clearly state it in my Terms of Service. It's not ripping off, or even fraud. Just because you didn't read it and ticked the box doesn't mean it does not apply to you.

 

i need to question this. have you ever heard of anybody taken to court over terms of service on a website? a check box no matter how much faith we put it in will never stand up in court. I mean seriously, companies with a signature on the bottom of their terms would quite often struggle to make them stick in a court.

 

Im not being argumentative about it, before you think that, ive just never heard of a single person taken to court in this manner.

[easyhosting]

or you can use the REFUND option upto 6 months after a transaction and there will be no charge and all fees you paid will be refunded.

 

no WRONG Paypal only allow you to refund upto 60 days after the original transaction

[Bubka3]

well i really am happy for you to have such a dubious policy, i am glad that i dont operate that way and i never will, its over paid its not mine and thats my policy. my client gets it back unless they advise me otherwise because i am just nice.

Keep feeding stupidity in consumers. If the cashier gives you twice more, you don't have to give it back. If you give the cashier twice more, he won't have to give it back. Thanks to WHMCS, the client automatically gets a credit. Refund? Clicking around and wasting my time with fee reversal and what not, no.

 

Hi disgruntled

 

I'm with you on this 100% and would also question the legality of keeping someone’s money that was paid in error.

If a bank makes a mistake and you end up with a credit you should not have had they take the money back, end of!

 

If monies have been paid and it is obviously a mistake then I can not understand wanting to keep it.

 

I’m not having the excuse that it was not my mistake so why should I have to bother with issuing a refund, if a couple of clicks to rectify a customers error is too much trouble for you then I honestly feel for your customers.

The issue isn't the credit. The issue is the refund. You have to go and do a bunch of stuff to get it completed.

 

And for your "rectify a customers error is too much trouble for you then I honestly feel for your customers" if my customers are making payment errors in this economy, it probably means they are too stupid in first place and I wouldn't want them as a customer anyways. Questions are fine, but how do I log into cPanel is not.

 

i need to question this. have you ever heard of anybody taken to court over terms of service on a website? a check box no matter how much faith we put it in will never stand up in court. I mean seriously, companies with a signature on the bottom of their terms would quite often struggle to make them stick in a court.

You obviously never heard of the US E-Sign Act and similar laws in countries such as yours (UK). You really think the judge is going to believe "Oh, this check box means nothing" when in fact you can't order w/o checking it. Just because it is the internet doesn't mean you have rights to * merchants and not follow the ToS you agreed to.

[easyhosting]

2. They are pretty "honest and legitimate". It's called a Terms of Service, and if you don't read them, too bad for you. They CLEARLY explain that it won't happen, they tell you up front, yet most people still complain. Most of them contain something just like this, "Invoices paid in mistake (including double-payments, or extra payment) cannot be refunded, but will be rewarded as account credit". I wouldn't be surprised if someone you do or did business with has this on their TOS.

 

so you are one that think because you have something in your TOS then its legal. Anyone can write a TOS and add anything they want, but this does not make it legally binding.

[Bubka3]

so you are one that think because you have something in your TOS then its legal. Anyone can write a TOS and add anything they want, but this does not make it legally binding.

Sure, but this line is perfectly legal:

Invoices paid in mistake (including double-payments, or extra payment) cannot be refunded, but will be rewarded as account credit".

[disgruntled]

Just because it is the internet doesn't mean you have rights to * merchants and not follow the ToS you agreed to.

 

But you have a right to * clients? its exactly that sort of attitude the puts the internet trade into the do not trust category.

 

I dont care how you label it, theft is theft, and if your paid too much then thats theft when you dont return it. An example did you know in the uk, if you find some money in the street and do not hand it into the police station, you could be prosecuted for "theft" by finding.

 

I really dont care about your business, or the way you run it, i wont ever be under your service so you make no difference to me. but as a whole, the industry is belittled and made a mockery of by companies doing exactly as you do.

 

You talk about "fee reversals" since when was that your concern? that is handled by ALL payment gateways, not you. all you do is initiate the refund which takes all of 30 seconds of your oh so precious time.

 

You can try to defend all your terms and conditions all you like, but ethically and morally your "non refund" practice isnt worth squat.

 

For instance, in the united kingdom, there is such a thing called the distance selling act, this means that anybody selling anything, over the telephone, by mail order ON THE INTERNET. has a legal obligation to provide and comply with at least a 14 day cooling off period, this means your client CAN instigate a refund and cancel any services you offer no matter what your terms and conditions state. you cannot enforce something that breaks the law, now your country may be different on this. but hey, i dont live in your country, i live in the uk and was raised to be a good person.

[disgruntled]

personally, i would prefer to go and spend a few minutes doing a bunch of stuff and know my customer is happy, than to tell them, oh sorry no, my terms state you gave it, so im keeping it. SMH such lack of moral fibre

[easyhosting]

Sure, but this line is perfectly legal:

Invoices paid in mistake (including double-payments, or extra payment) cannot be refunded, but will be rewarded as account credit".

 

No the legal wording must be

Invoices paid in mistake (including double-payments, or extra payment) may be refunded or rewarded as account credit at the discrection of the seller.

 

we had our own TOS checked and the amount of phrases that needed amended so under current legislation then look more in favour to the consumer

Edited June 13, 2012 by easyhosting
typo

[disgruntled]

Sure, but this line is perfectly legal:

Invoices paid in mistake (including double-payments, or extra payment) cannot be refunded, but will be rewarded as account credit".

 

So how do you propose the client uses the credit? if they dont want any more services from you, it will never get used. or is this the real reason?

[disgruntled]

we had our own TOS checked and the amount of phrases that needed amended so unde current legislation then look more in favour to the consumer

 

all terms should be in favour of the consumer, unless they are to protect your company from harm in this case you have the right to have a term in your favour, and the consumer has the right not to enter the contract

[easyhosting]

all terms should be in favour of the consumer, unless they are to protect your company from harm in this case you have the right to have a term in your favour, and the consumer has the right not to enter the contract

 

WRONG. Your TOS must legally be in favour of the consumer when it mentions anything regarding payments/refunds/cancellations.

 

when we started we had our TOS checked by local trading standards and they almost tore these to shreds by removing some points adding other points and amending some points so that the TOS were more in the favour of the consumer.

[disgruntled]

WRONG. Your TOS must legally be in favour of the consumer when it mentions anything regarding payments/refunds/cancellations.

 

when we started we had our TOS checked by local trading standards and they almost tore these to shreds by removing some points adding other points and amending some points so that the TOS were more in the favour of the consumer.

 

 

payments cancellations and refunds to not specifically harm your company, you lose a minute amount of profit, that is not harm. and i didnt day must, i said should, as in, you SHOULD be protecting your clients in ALL of your terms, not just in payments etc.

 

i will paste redunds policy, this is how they should be, whether the legal wording is correct makes no difference they are in favour of the client so they have no reason to dispute them.

 

All Renewals of web hosting contracts will be refunded if --- is notified within the time stated below following the renewal of the appropriate contract term. No refunds will be issued for the current term for notifications received after this period, the notification will be treated as a standard cancellation request with an end of term cancellation placed, the remaining balance if any will be refunded at the time of cancellation.

 

Additional products such disk space, POP accounts, e-mail forwarding, and auto responders are refundable if, within the first 10 days following account renewal, either of the following conditions exists:

1.The hosting account is cancelled

2.Client cancel any additional products EG: (disk space, POP accounts, e-mail forwarding and auto responders) that is in use under the hosting account

 

Refund Policy (Over Payment/Duplicate Payment)

In the event of over payment or a duplicate payment client is entitled to a full refund of any over payment or duplicate payment. --- Will contact Client to make suitable arrangement for repayment, offer of account credit shall be made to client or refund by the over-paid payment method. Over-payment may occur due to a manual payment when a subscription exists and/or other accidental duplicate payment by the client. --- will where a subscription exist, refund the manual payment to prevent a future lapse, account credit may still be used instead upon Client request.

 

Refund Policy Time Limitation (after the beginning of a renewed term)

Hosting Monthly: 7 days

Hosting Annually: 3 months

Domain Names: Not after renewal

SSL Certificates: Not after Issue

IP Address Monthly: 7 days

IP Address Annually: 3 months

 

In case of annual renewal terms, A monthly renewal basis will be used to calculate the final refund value. Any used term and the current term if after the monthly limit will be deducted from the refund value.

Client will be refunded in full for the remaining, if any, unused payment terms.

 

I think these are fair? and wholy in client favour? correct me if im wrong.

 

my refund policy on new accounts is immaterial, its a 45 day satisfaction guarantee, the only exception is when i offer trial promotions, in this case there is no refund guarantee but instead a 30 day free trial

Edited June 14, 2012 by WHMCS John

[easyhosting]

whether the legal wording is correct makes no difference they are in favour of the client so they have no reason to dispute them.

 

the legal wording must be correct, but yes these seem fair.

 

if you offer VPS/Dedicated servers then these also need mentioned.

[b0r3d]

Yes, looks like another one post wonder, paid to post and provide negative comments

 

Yeah this kind of assumption is indeed absurd. I purchased WHMCS and ran it for a year before i registered on these forums. 1 post or 400 doesn't make anyone more or less legitimate of their comments, concerns or otherwise.

[b0r3d]

See above in bold.

This isn't just you disgruntled, but too many people think they are entitled to something because they made a mistake. You are not, and anyone who does refund you is just being nice.

 

It's also a businesses responsibility to ensure consumers are not ripped off if they like to remain in business. Thus "Business Ethics 101"

 

Just because he accidentally paid twice, why on earth would a customer need two? Though late, a credit would have been the responsible thing to do. Anyhow, it's those like yourself who think "entitlement" is a pathetic way of life for lowlife consumers. When i accidentally overpay, it's the responsible, the honest, the smart thing to do, to notify, tell someone.

 

How many times i've seen someone drop a $20, $50 and once a $100 on the floor as i stand behind them. Do i stand on it and keep it when their gone? No. It's the right thing to do, to tap their shoulder and say hey you dropped some money.

 

Recently a story local to us here where i live. Mcdonalds accidentally handed a customer a bag thinking it was their order of food. Rather it was around $15,000 in cash to be deposited. The person responsible was stupid enough to place it near the drive though area. What did the driver do when they noticed it was cash? Believe it or not, he actually returned every cent of it. Mcdonalds didn't reward him very well except with $200 but, it's the moral thing and the right thing to do.

 

It's like saying was it "The customers fault for getting the wrong bag?" Nope it wasn't, but it sure was the right thing to hand it back.

 

my 2 cents

[b0r3d]

thank you for the vote on that, at least i know im not on my own thinking the client should be refunded

 

I probably should have multi quoted but i don't know vb very well, sorry for the multiple posts.

 

I also agree with your logic 100%. It's people like Bubka3 (sorry Bubka3 to single you out as you're not the only one) but it's people like this that really give the industry a really bad reputation. Terms of service, privacy policy, acceptable use policy are all to protect you and your customer sure.

 

BUT, it's not there to assist on profiting on customer mistakes. If you run a business and enjoy profiting because honest customers make mistakes (Eg: Double payment) and your philosophy is to "Hah too bad, read our TOS sucka" then you really do not deserve to be in business. An honest business is a successful one. Being stuck up, stingy and a dishonest business man is what leaves bad taste in all consumers mouths including ALL of us in some way with some service we may have paid for one day in our lives outside of our business.

 

I cannot believe people believe in shoving a TOS in a customers face for stuff such as double payments or overpayments overall. For legality reasons that's what the fine print is for, but at the end of the day how you RUN your business shows just what type of business man or woman you are. Clearly those and alike such as Bubka3 run a business based purely on profit without any sort of customer service.

 

I have a customer out in Australia who some how was over paying 2 times a month (We missed it for 5 months) so WHMCS can VERY easily miss simple things. They do get a pass on this one. Not because we missed ours but because with a multitude of payments coming in, it's about balancing your books not much else. As far as we could see it was an add funds until we actually looked in to it when they pointed it out to us.

 

Though it wasn't a solution to his budget since it was far passed 60 days we offered a free VPS for 2 months and 3 months free credit for their business hosting account. We worked with him and ensured they were happy with what we worked out. Shy of giving everything free, we'll go out of our way to ensure a happy customer stays that way. It's just how a good business runs.

 

It's been successful for us since day one, our customers all have nothing but good things to say. Overpayments happen, we've even done it with softaculous some how, not sure how but it happened.

 

Keep feeding stupidity in consumers. If the cashier gives you twice more, you don't have to give it back. If you give the cashier twice more, he won't have to give it back. Thanks to WHMCS, the client automatically gets a credit. Refund? Clicking around and wasting my time with fee reversal and what not, no.

 

You really do think consumers are cattle don't you? Yes a cashier does have to give you back if you gave too much money. An audit is done on the til to ensure they aren't over. This i know as when i met my wife 15 years ago she was a cashier when she was young this happened more times than you can shake a stick at. You seem to value your time too much, maybe running a business isn't in your best interest ?

Edited June 13, 2012 by b0r3d

[easyhosting]

I have a customer out in Australia who some how was over paying 2 times a month (We missed it for 5 months) so WHMCS can VERY easily miss simple things. They do get a pass on this one. Not because we missed ours but because with a multitude of payments coming in, it's about balancing your books not much else. As far as we could see it was an add funds until we actually looked in to it when they pointed it out to us.

 

 

sometimes a double payment issue is a paypal/WHMCS issue.

 

I recently had a customer who by mistake paid an invoice when they received this forgetting they had a paypal subscription set up, so this marked the invoice as paid, but then the Paypal subscription paid ther money again, which correct WHMCS placed this as a credit to the clients account. i contacted the client and he told me just to keep it as a credit and it would pay the next invoice, which it did but then the PP subscription still activated, giving the same situation, so i informed the cliuent of this and then refunded him 1 payment and removed the credit.

[Bubka3]

I also agree with your logic 100%. It's people like Bubka3 (sorry Bubka3 to single you out as you're not the only one) but it's people like this that really give the industry a really bad reputation. Terms of service, privacy policy, acceptable use policy are all to protect you and your customer sure.

Well hey, I am consumer to. I read the terms of service, and understand. I won't get my money back for double payment. I have x days before a cycle ends to cancel. Its there, written in the company's TOS. They are not hiding it from me.

 

BUT, it's not there to assist on profiting on customer mistakes. If you run a business and enjoy profiting because honest customers make mistakes (Eg: Double payment) and your philosophy is to "Hah too bad, read our TOS sucka" then you really do not deserve to be in business. An honest business is a successful one. Being stuck up, stingy and a dishonest business man is what leaves bad taste in all consumers mouths including ALL of us in some way with some service we may have paid for one day in our lives outside of our business.

We never had a customer who had a problem with this policy. They all used the credit for next month and or later on for another service.

 

I cannot believe people believe in shoving a TOS in a customers face for stuff such as double payments or overpayments overall. For legality reasons that's what the fine print is for, but at the end of the day how you RUN your business shows just what type of business man or woman you are. Clearly those and alike such as Bubka3 run a business based purely on profit without any sort of customer service.

I could care less about the money. Its the principle. I don't hide my TOS behind a locked vault. Is their, clearly written for you. You think I care about $4.99?

 

You really do think consumers are cattle don't you? Yes a cashier does have to give you back if you gave too much money. An audit is done on the til to ensure they aren't over. This i know as when i met my wife 15 years ago she was a cashier when she was young this happened more times than you can shake a stick at. You seem to value your time too much, maybe running a business isn't in your best interest ?

No, the cashier will pocket it and lie. What can you prove? Nothing. Should of counted what you gave him/her in the first place.

 

I don't know why you all jumped on the bandwagon that I don't like customers or anything like that. All customers enjoy our services, and unique features we provide to them such as DDoS protection. We most likely even provide more support regarding 3rd party mods/scripts then anyone else. But, I won't baby someone because they don't read our Terms Of Service. We rather answer support tickets then calculate, you get this refund, etc, etc. WHMCS will auto-credit over payments. That's it. Nothing further will happen.

[disgruntled]

WHMCS will auto-credit over payments. That's it. Nothing further will happen.

 

 

You are 100% correct, but you seem to have missed, ignored or disregarded my point. WHMCS credits the clients account, now as easy hosting pointed out, and indeed which was the point i made if a subscription exists and the client forgets and makes a payment this is the problem with the reminder system its not flexible enough (another time maybe) to handle the reminders properly, so we have to hack it with email templates and try to overcome this shortcoming with conditionals.

 

I personally check (via the templates) id exists for a subscription (just that the subscription is not empty), and i send a different reminder altogether, one that asks them to instead check their balance to ensure the subscription can be paid.

 

This does go some way toward fixing this issue because the email they get isnt saying, you have to pay this invoice now, its saying, you have an invoice created, but hey its fine, you have a subscription so this is just for your records.

 

The only reason i do this is because of the many times i had double payments, some of which the client asked for a refund, some for a credit and indeed as you pointed out, later went on to use the credit on other services. (might i add all of these instances i personally contacted the client before they even knew what happened) but the point is this.

 

10 years ago when i was just buying hosting, i only used the company for one service, i had absolutely no interest in any other service they offered. i had one website, and i didnt need all their services. besides, they didnt offer much aside from hosting, dedicated servers or ssl certs, and the site only needed hosting anyway. they didnt even offer domain registration so there was no way i could have used a credit. a lot of people with a website are in this exact same situation, they dont need the extra services nor do they want them. so a credit will never be used unless they cancel the subscription and start it again when its due again. thats a pain in the backside, a refund is far simpler.

Edited June 14, 2012 by disgruntled

[disgruntled]

Well hey, I am consumer to. I read the terms of service, and understand. I won't get my money back for double payment. I have x days before a cycle ends to cancel. Its there, written in the company's TOS. They are not hiding it from me.

None of us hide our policies, besides most gateways stipulate that they should be linked to from your front page, well personally i link to them from the footer of all pages. that doesn't mean i should be saying, hey you accepted the terms so your not having a refund. infact as i posted previously, my refunds policy states i WILL refund/credit based on the clients wishes.

 

We never had a customer who had a problem with this policy. They all used the credit for next month and or later on for another service.

You are lucky then. it could be said the credit system in some ways will generate further leads, but not in all cases and in the cases it doesnt, can actually create problems not solutions.

 

I could care less about the money. Its the principle. I don't hide my TOS behind a locked vault. Is their, clearly written for you. You think I care about $4.99?

who mentioned the value? ive actually had a duplicate payment for a much larger sum of money. some people cant afford to pay twice in a month on a large server account. refunds here are crucial to a satisfied customer. i cant see a customer staying long if i kept their bill money can you?

 

No, the cashier will pocket it and lie. What can you prove? Nothing. Should of counted what you gave him/her in the first place.

This all comes down to morals, ive done checkout work, i had a customer say to me, hey i gave you a 20 you gave me change for a 10. company policy was to ask the client to return the following day (cashing up end of the day obviously) and it would be sorted out.

 

She left her name and phone number, at the end of the day, i had made a mistake, the money was placed into an envelope with her name on it and she collected it with a smile on her face the following day.

 

its all about morals and customer service/satisfaction nothing more nothing less

[easyhosting]

their are 2 senarios of double payments and we act differently on both.

 

1) an active client pays forgetting they have a subscription 9/10 the client will say just keep the credit for further services, but we will refund if they want the extra payment refunded.

 

2) a client cancels their services, but forgets to cancel their PP subscription. we have this in the cancel request confirmation email

IMPORTANT NOTICE: If you have been using a PayPal subscription to pay for your account, please ensure that you CANCEL your subscription now. The billing system can not do this for you.

 

Locating, and disbursing, non-allocated PayPal payments is a manual, and time consuming, process. Because of this, any requests for refunds of overpayments resulting from not cancelling subscriptions will attract a 25% administration fee, which will be deducted from the total refund amount due.

 

It is in your best interests to ensure that you cancel any and all PayPal subscriptions relating to your services immediately. Thank You.

 

which we follow through if this ever happens.

 

we also have on our orderform that a client must accept our TOS before finalising the order and this is kept on record, so if they dispute later we can provide evidence that they accept our TOS on ordering the services.