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ju5t last won the day on March 12

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About ju5t

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  1. ju5t


    Ah right, sorry, I can see why this wasn't obvious from my initial post. We're offering R1soft at the moment. Every so often though we run into problems. This can be anything really. When it works it's great though I think it's always good to look out for alternatives. In the meantime I've had a look at Acronis but their minimum commitment is above our budget unfortunately.
  2. ju5t


    Out of curiosity, what are most of you using to run your backups that integrates nicely into WHMCS?
  3. WHMCS does a decent job when it comes to VIES and MOSS. I think WHMCS' invoice changes have an impact on all companies no matter where they're from. I've illustrated that in my previous post. Companies in the EU will probably be affected more than others. I'm not asking them to implement a feature that's 'more or less the same in all countries', I'm asking them to add a feature that can stop automated changes. It's very specific. I'm not even talking about invoice changes you can make by hand. I don't expect them to create solutions for all rules and regulations local lawmakers find necessary, that would make the scope too large. It's a small change that solves a big problem for companies in the EU but also has its use for other companies around the world. And to be fair, Europe is quite a large portion of the world. It wouldn't hurt to follow some regulations here and there.
  4. Before this explodes into a discussion about when VAT is and isn't due; that's not the point I am trying to make. It's about whether or not WHMCS should change invoices automatically. I believe there are reasons not to do this no matter the country or continent you're from. Most changes are based on the assumption that customers always pay online. As much as I would like this, many of our customers still pay via bank transfer. If you send an email (even it's a proforma invoice) with the amount the customer is due and decide not to notify the customer of an automated change, customers will pay the wrong amount. I believe this can also happen when you e-mail PayPal links in your email. At the moment, customers are not informed and invoices are changed. This isn't a great experience for both ourselves as our customers. I think it makes more sense to create a new invoice for the additional fee(s), link it to the domain in case of the grace/redemption feature and inform the customer as it happens. If you process a bank transfer and the domain is not renewed because extra fees are due, let the customer know. I think that this benefits everyone, companies in the US, India and Europe but more importantly, the customer. I know WHMCS doesn't have a great track record and the general feeling is that most feature requests never see the light of day. For me that's not enough reason not to start a discussion. The more people talk about it, the more attention it may get from WHMCS.
  5. Don't get me wrong, I don't want WHMCS to replace our accounting software at all. And I don't want them to focus on the EU alone either. In essence all I'm looking for is a way to stop WHMCS from changing invoices automatically. The current grace/redemption feature is a great example of how this can go wrong. It will always change the original invoice, no matter if you choose to add the fees to an existing invoice or if you prefer a new invoice instead. Even when you go for a new invoice it removes the domain from the original invoice which is very confusing for us, but more importantly to the customer. I suggested to add a third option that complies with EU law -- and keeps the original functionality intact. We've been using WHMCS since 2010 after having used ModernBill in the years before that. We have been able to work around some of the quirks in the past. I don't think it is up to us to create work arounds for problems affecting so many others.
  6. Sorry, I misinterpreted your reference to proforma invoices in the sentence "It will be official only if it will be paid by the client" and thought you meant normal invoices -- but you are right. Our partial workaround is to export all invoices to our accounting software as soon as they are created. As our accounting software doesn't allow any changes so we've got most things covered. WHMCS can still change the invoices it has issued in its own system but at least we have some reference to fall back on. Customers can still pay too much or too little when WHMCS makes a change (e.g. when they pay via bank transfer based on an email they received while WHMCS has changed the invoice in the meantime) and that's taking up a lot of time lately. Unfortunately, even though this is on WHMCS' radar, nothing happens and we don't have much else we can do at this point.
  7. Wow, your font doesn't come out great on my screen. It's not easy on the eyes. VAT is chargeable at the moment the service is supplied, not when an invoice is paid. This is the case for every European country. I've referenced this article in a previous post but perhaps you've missed it: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/eu-vat-rules-topic/chargeable-event-chargeability_en. A proforma invoice and not paying tax while you're providing a service is, unlike what you state in your post, not legal. You've provided a service that you should get paid for and therefore VAT is due. The current system of changing a proforma invoice into a fiscal document upon payment is not how it is dictated by European law. Even if proforma invoices were the solution (for the record: they're definitely not), they're not common or used at all by B2C or B2B service providers in The Netherlands and would be confusing for most customers. For some it's easy to say that you should teach your customers differently but that's not how we approach or deal with them. We're here to make it easier. The problem is the fact that WHMCS makes changes to invoices at its sole discretion. If a customer cancels a product on an unpaid invoice, this product is removed from the invoice, and that's not allowed. There are other cases too where WHMCS removes items from an invoice, resulting in customers either paying too little or too much. You could argue that proforma invoices can be used as a workaround but that would only be true if you haven't supplied the service yet. This essentially means you would have to suspend all services on the day the service is due for renewal. It's not the most customer friendly solution of all.
  8. Hi @WHMCS John, thanks for your reply but from where I'm sitting this is not quality service. Nobody answered between 7AM UTC and 10AM UTC. This is pretty much our morning gone as we're in the CET timezone. We were unable to raise any tickets as your systems were offline. When we finally could raise a ticket we received a standard reply to acknowledge the problem and the promise that we would be updated once the issue was resolved. This didn't happen. When we asked for an update it took your team 5 hours to respond with a standard text that gets copied and pasted to everyone. The last 2 replies were quick but don't answer my concerns about not wanting to write a public post mortem. I appreciate the fact that you believe support has been improved over the last 6 years and although I don't see this myself and my experiences are flakey at best, that's not the point here. I think your communication has been far from great during this major problem. Not wanting to write a public post mortem like other companies do feels to me as if you want to hide the issue under the carpet to avoid bad publicity. I don't see public post mortems that way, I see them as an invaluable tool to talk to your customers, say sorry and explain how you're going to do better in the future. Again, everyone understands that IT breaks, we've all been through it, but you have to communicate and that's not what you did, at least at the level I expect from a company your size.
  9. Your team didn't respond very fast to be honest. It took hours for them to acknowledge that there was a problem. There has been very limited communication and so far I have been denied an official reason for outage including steps on how you plan to prevent this in the future. Your team is downplaying the problem by using words as 'reduced availability' and 'degradation' for a major problem which I can't really appreciate. Your team also claims that service was restored at 12:30 UTC. We were still experiencing issues at 14:30 UTC. We already had a ticket open about the issue and it took 5 hours to respond with a standard answer. We're all working in IT so we know that things can go wrong. When it does, you need to solve the issue and communicate. You didn't, and still don't, communicate very well. My biggest problem is the fact that you were entirely off the grid when the problem occurred and didn't communicate out in the open when the issue was found. The communication of WHMCS has been very, very poor to say the least and the fact that your team denies to give a proper public explanation feels wrong. Sorry, I'm not impressed.
  10. In this case though, WHMCS is changing an invoice after it has been sent. If you take this to your comparison; it's a self-driving car that forces you to drive 170km/h, and although I doubt there are case laws about this yet, I assume the car manufacturer would be the one to change this (if you can't, and in the case of WHMCS, you have no choice). And I know you can change invoice records one way or another, that's besides the point, WHMCS shouldn't do it by itself. This isn't a binary discussion, it's not a case of true or false, I was merely making a suggestion which you seem to be taking as an offence. If that's the case I'm sorry, but that wasn't my intention. I don't agree. I'm giving feedback on a process that I think should be changed. You have solved it by changing your business process to proforma invoices which is great, as it helps your company, but we have another opinion. You don't seem to see this as feedback but as an attack on WHMCS (or yourself), it isn't. I just want a solution for a problem we've had in the last 8 years. Until now we've been able to work around it by developing custom add-ons that prevent certain situations from happening, but WHMCS keeps on adding features that are able to change invoices automatically. I don't think this is right as EU legislation is very clear about this. As I pointed out before: the change is only illegal if there is no reliable audit trail. Our accounting software doesn't allow you to change invoices. If you do want to make a change it forces you to do so in a way that creates an audit trail. Of course there are always ways around it but as I started this reply, that's not the point. We're not the only ones. It was raised over 4 years ago already: https://requests.whmcs.com/topic/prevent-invoices-from-being-changed. If you or anyone else has any EU laws or case laws that I'm not familiar with please share them, as again, this is feedback, it's not an attack. I'm more than happy to change my feedback if it turns out my understanding of EU legislation has been wrong.
  11. I'm not entirely sure what you're after. My question is not about how to run your business it's about WHMCS offering an option that hasn't been properly implemented. You seem to be looking for answers on how we decide to run our business and you're hinting that we should change that, but that's not what we want. Regardless of how you run your business, WHMCS allows you to make changes to invoices (in your case, for paid services) and that's illegal. It doesn't matter if you use proforma or not, once it becomes an invoice it shouldn't be possible to change it. It really is that simple. Again, we don't want to use proforma invoices, not now, not in the future. We want to be able to send standard invoices, as is currently possible already, and it should not be possible to change them, ever.
  12. This is not what you initially wrote down. You said that unpaid invoices are to be considered proforma and that's not true. I know the difference between the two, that's not why I'm pointing it out. WHMCS supports both invoices as well as proforma invoices. Their implementation of invoices is wrong. Even if you would use proforma invoices WHMCS allows you to change an invoice after it has been paid, this should stop. Either way, this entire question is not about what alternatives are out there, it's about the fact that we're using invoices (and not proforma invoices) and we don't want to change that. Our customers wouldn't understand. Proforma isn't common in a lot of European countries, definitely not in ours, when it comes to B2C. Yes. Exactly that. This is an edge case for us, it rarely happens, so we choose to send out invoices immediately. You pick out one example, but what about renewals? If you renew a service you are already providing the service and VAT is due. Do you immediately suspend the service when payment is due? We don't. We chase our customers if they don't pay. I know proforma is widely used for custom purposes but it's not very common in B2C transactions. Even in B2B it's not used often, at least not by the companies we work with. Again though, we don't want to use proforma invoices, it's not a solution, it's a workaround.
  13. Unpaid invoices aren't considered proforma invoices in the EU by default. An invoice sent via e-mail is a fiscal document and gives you a legal ground to chase a payment, proforma invoices don't. Also, as VAT is chargeable at the moment the service is supplied, not when an invoice is paid, it makes sense to use invoices for companies in the EU. The fact that WHMCS gives both options doesn't change the fact that it is illegal to remove or adjust invoices after they have been sent. It's illegal to change invoices because you are required to have a reliable audit trail. WHMCS just deletes information from an invoice. It doesn't make a credit note, it doesn't log the change, it's just gone. https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/resources/documents/taxation/vat/traders/invoicing_rules/explanatory_notes_en.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/eu-vat-rules-topic/chargeable-event-chargeability_en
  14. I'm confused. WHMCS has successfully implemented GDPR in time before the deadline but it still makes illegal changes to invoices after they have gone out to a customer. In 7.5 they have added another feature that does this. The domain redemption feature makes sense in a lot of ways. It should never remove the domain from an invoice when it expired though. I always get the idea that such features aren't given enough thought. This is the second time in under 6 months that a new feature causes problems. I'm really disappointed by this. It would be great if WHMCS would keep EU laws and regulations in mind when developing new features. For example, this means you can never, ever change an invoice after it has been sent.
  15. Unfortunately that's what it is these days. Let's hope WHMCS will pick up longstanding issues too.

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